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License question?

Discussion in 'Licensing & Education' started by Capt.Ryan, Jan 12, 2010.

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  1. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    That is patently incorrect. He is running an operation and vessel which takes passengers for hire, that makes him a professional mariner and subject to being held to the standards of his license testing. The OUPV witten is from the exact same book as the 100 and 200 ton masters exam. When they hand you the test book at the USCG REC all three are listed on the cover. The difference in which license is issued as the result of that test is one of time on tonnage and what you ask for on your application. The standards of performance you are liable for are the same whether you hold an OUPV or an Unlimited Level license.

    The test he took is meant to be taken using the CFR as a direct reference when answering the Deck General module of questions. When studying for the test happens the proper way, the candidate will have spent at least 10-12 hrs doing research in the CFRs and will be well versed at it. The CFRs are actually very well laid out and indexed. When I learned all this, we didn't have computers for it. You studied using a paper copy of the CFRs and physically looking up answers to the test bank questions.

    As I said earlier, I'm betting Capt Ryan used a "Learn the Test" based licensing program. This is actually an issue I have been dealing with and battling as a captain, especially when, as I frequently do, serve a company as their training captain get the new guys up to speed. The problem is really with the training system more so than the candidates. As you know, there are basically two ways to come up with an entry USCG license. You either have recreationally been on/ around/ owned boats for a few years or you have been working in an unlicensed capacity on them. For those who come up the recreational side direct to ticket, typically will go to a school, either on line or brick and mortar. What I see is that the people who went to a "learn the test" program, unless they came from working with a strong captain who likes to train, were much poorer in their knowledge base than those who attended class in a program that taught you and actually filled in the knowledge gaps required to answer the questions by figuring out the problem posed.

    You think I'm being mean but I'm not. I'm just being blunt and letting a new guy know that he is lacking knowledge and pick up the slack.
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    "The OUPV witten is from the exact same book as the 100 and 200 ton masters exam. When they hand you the test book at the USCG REC all three are listed on the cover. The difference in which license is issued as the result of that test is one of time on tonnage and what you ask for on your application."

    are you saying that the OUPV, 100T and 200T tests are the same?
  3. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    ROFL! nice sig edit!
  4. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Yes sir. When I sat for my 100ton, they handed me a book that had a cover OUPV, OUTV, 100ton Master, 200ton Master. When I upgraded the book was labeled 500ton Master, 1600ton Master
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    well maybe the USCG only publishes one book and they pick different questions because the 100T is completly different from the OUPV. for instance it includes stability, load lines and inspected vessel equipment questions the OUPV does't cover.

    completly different tests.

    in fact, for the OUPV you dont' need/get the CFRs at all...
  6. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    That's part of the problem as well, allowing independent commercial agents train and test for the entry grade licenses.
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    the material and the test are verified and approved by the USCG, the questions are the same....
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes and no. The same questions that are found in the 6 pack license are also found in the 100T and 200T, however in the 100T and 200T there are additional sectons and additional questions that are not in the 6 pack test. The Towing
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Towing is a separate endorsement and test... And for instance I don't recall nav rules in the 100t ...
  10. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    You have Nav General modules on all USCG tests, Inland to Oceans.

    Commercial Assist towing is a 10 question endorsement. Master of Towing Vessels requires time on towing vessels but has no test module. Commercial Assist is only an endorsement on 100 & 200 ton licenses. It is included with a 500 ton and 1600 ton.
  11. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    It is worth the time if you intend to use it. The license means you passed a test. How you choose to prepare for the test is what makes the difference. If you learn all the material required to get an OUPV, you will have a good foundation of knowledge to work with. It's all in how much effort you want to put into it to determine its actual value.

    I would suggest just putting together some more time and sitting for a limited tonnage Masters license. The OUPV license has a very restricted market, but if you're a small boat fishing or dive guide, it's all you need. If you don't intend to work it, actually getting an OUPV license is pretty much worthless. Insurance companies don't require CG licenses for private owner operators on vessels less than 25 gross tons. If you have a 75'+ boat and the insurance wants a license aboard, you'll need more than an OUPV. It's the same information you need to know to operate the vessel safely and professionally as well as passing the test, so if you study and learn the material to answer the questions, and all the questions are available free from the CG for every test they have, you can just test yourself and see where you stand.

    Depending on your time on tonnage, the REC, yearly change of mind at the CG, they will issue you a 25, 50 or 100 ton ticket with 720 days. Sometimes even if all you have is small boat time, they'll write you a 100ton because it's the lowest they are writing, sometimes they'll give you a 25ton and tell you "Come back with 180 days of service time and we'll endorse it to 100 ton"
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    "Insurance companies don't require CG licenses for private owner operators on vessels less than 25 gross tons."

    25GT isnt' a set tonnage, they typically dont' require a license until much larger than that for owner/operated boats. it depends on the underwriter and the owner's experience as well as how much of a jump in size.

    "Depending on your time on tonnage, the REC, yearly change of mind at the CG, they will issue you a 25, 50 or 100 ton ticket with 720 days. Sometimes even if all you have is small boat time, they'll write you a 100ton because it's the lowest they are writing, sometimes they'll give you a 25ton and tell you "Come back with 180 days of service time and we'll endorse it to 100 ton""

    this is misleading, the rules are very clear (in the CFR).
    ----
    50 GT increments, EITHER:
    1) Maximum tonnage on which 25% of required experience obtained, OR
    2) 150% tonnage on which at least 50% of experience obtained.
    ----

    for isntance if you have at least ...
    360 days on 40GT, you will get a 100T license
    180 days on 45GT you will get a 50T license
    360 days on 20GT you will get a 50T license
    180 days on 24GT you will get a 25T license

    100GT is NOT the lowest they are writing and it's not depending on their "change of mind", it's clearly stated in the CFRs.
  13. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    I agree, there is a caviat in the CFRs though where nearly everything is "subject to the OCMI". I do know of several people who were issued 100 ton licenses several years back who should have been first issued 50 ton tickets because at that time they were not issuing anything less at the decision of the OCMI Houston REC. It was during the time when they were swamped with STCW-95 forms and running months behind and the OCMI wanted to dispense with the 180 day returns for upgrade endorsements. The OCMI has a lot of latitude in all this.
  14. captainJJ

    captainJJ New Member

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    sorry all of you but it does seem incredible that you can ply for charter and it is not inspected by any authority, does not really matter what licence skipper is holding if boat is not checked over. Would hate to think about the Health and safety element in the event of an incident MOB or such like.
  15. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Before the multi-millionaires took over the boating business guys actually earned a living on small boats. They still do in some parts of the world. Some people would actually prefer to fish with a few buddies (not 12 or 49). If you're fishing on the reef 3/4 mile off Ft. Lauderdale beach a million dollar boat isn't needed. The guys running these smaller boats are hardly making a living these days. Make those boats come up to commercial status and they'll be gone. Then, when you want to drop bait with your son or daughter you can either twist lines with 49 other folks or fork over a years pay. BTW, those 6 pack charter boats do seem to make it back to the dock more times than not and with all passengers still on board.
  16. Hot Rod

    Hot Rod New Member

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    NYCAP123 I love reading your posts. They are so logical, well put and loaded with common sense. I am very close to several Captains that run 6 pack charters, and totally agree with your point of view! My associates have fished the Cape Fear area for years and have a great respect for the ocean and all that she can bring. They also have the knowledge and experience to get them home, no matter what is encountered.
  17. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I think your interpretation of "uninspected" is a bit skewed, but not to worry or criticize, many Americans don't know the difference either. The USCG certainly does inspect small vessels used in the "Uninspected Passenger Vessel" trade. Follow the link to a checklist that applies to these boats.

    The boats in question are not totally unregulated and when used for charter are commercially operated, hence the need for a USCG operator's permit or master's license as opposed to something issued by the local town council or harbormaster. I don't know what other stipulations frighten NYCAP or what other "commerical status" might apply that doesn't already.

    http://www.uscg.mil/pvs/docs/UPV%20EXAM%20BOOKLET%20JUN2008.pdf
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I think you missed the word "Voluntary". No inspection is required. Most recreational small boats would not pass (regular, not 6 pack) inspected status due to hull materials used, unless things have changed.
  19. BMS

    BMS Senior Member

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    With the snapper grouper closure in the S Atlantic area I think we are going to see a lot more of these guys going under.:(
  20. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Thanks for making my point about not many Americans knowing the difference between inspected and inspection ...

    As far as "voluntary" goes, next time the CG boarding party comes onboard your uninspected passenger vessel just tell them you choose not to volunteer for their inspection services. :rolleyes: