Discussion in 'Marinas & Waypoints' started by JWY, May 12, 2015.
Got word that LMC has been sold with new ownership effective July 1.
Any word on the purchaser?
Interesting history. LMC property bought out of receivership in 97. Denison property in 2004. Then River Bend last year.
Whether shipyards, marinas or whatever, there always seem to be lots of Fort Lauderdale properties for sale.
Of course there's still the marina property right across from them that went bankrupt before ever building. Great property but the dreams were fantasy plus and getting that far into New River to dock is just not the easiest of experiences.
At least five Fort Lauderdale marinas currently available and well over 100 in Florida.
Interesting.... Do you think it is because properties are at a "high"point or is the "Marina" business at a low??? Any and all thoughts....
Actually neither. I think many think marinas will be more of a gold mine than they are. Then, like any business, some people just get tired of the business.
Then sometimes a property is just worth more to a buyer than seller as a practical matter. River Bend was a good example of that. Who wants to buy River Bend with LMC right beside it? Who is it most valuable to? LMC was just logical. Sometimes then operations take things as far as they can on the capital they have.
Then there are some that are in trouble from the beginning. The property across from LMC could make a very nice marina for a few large yachts. But the plans that were drawn up and the money required to build it were outrageous. So then it ends up bank owned and still too high.
Several marinas sold have been foreclosures too.
One thing that often happens and I think does apply in the LMC case is that owners continue to invest, businesses may add debt as well, and while owners may get some return and debt holders may earn interest, there is really only one way for people to get their investment back. That is to sell. Until you do, that money you invested or loaned is just sitting out there. Often profits have even been plowed back in.
It's somewhat like sports teams. I'll use the NBA as an example. Most of the teams don't make a lot of money operating. Micky Arison bought the Miami Heat for $33 Million. Today Forbes says it's worth $1.175 Billion. It had an operating profit of $12.6 million last year and that's before any interest expense. $12.6 million is a lousy return on a $1.175 Billion asset. But the only way Micky benefits from it's increased value is to sell it. Then he makes a Billion Dollars. 20% of the teams have been sold in the last couple of years or are currently in the process.
Just adding. In the last 3 years, I'm aware of 12 marinas on the market, most of them sold.
A note on River Bend. It was bank owned when LMC purchased it.
Looks like somebody bought it again and will start building Dock-Ominiums there soon. A few pilings have been put in place already. Should be complete by next summer according to fancy sign on the sea wall.
Riverbend has been in bankruptcy for years. Managers has been hired and fired several times to turn it around. Now the new owners kicked all the boats out and they are cleaning the soil for contaminates, then it will be paved and the whole place will reopen next year.
LMC bought River Bend.
I know that, was talking about the place across from LMC that you mentioned above and that I quoted. Sold to an investor group from Texas.
Yes the place across has had a very interesting history. Who knows what will happen this time.
I guess it's like chartering a nice yacht, while you are out enjoying the service, views and atmosphere you think how great it would be to own it and live like this everyday. Then reality is, if you owned it, you would be fixing, maintaining, worrying and writing checks for something you would only use a few times a year and probably never enjoy as much as if you just chartered and then walked away!
I was just wondering if Dock-Ominiums were still happening in Florida after the crash of 2008. I can't think of a worse investment (for the slip "buyer").
There are still some happening. There are several that have been quite successful, others that have failed. As to whether it's a good investment for the buyer or not, that really depends on the situation. The ones that have always made the most sense are in developments where home owners buy slips as well. They are already invested in the community and owning the slip may enhance the value of their home or condo.
Many people like ownership, some for themselves and some as investments. The investments, much as is sometimes the case with land condos, have been poor if one was looking to resell, but good if one was simply looking to rent out the slip.
In some ways ownership of dock slips is no different than homes in that some people just like the permanency. The issues have come about where the seller of the docks went bankrupt and uncertainty arose regarding unsold slips and ongoing maintenance costs.
There have also been several indoor facilities in which slips were sold.
Dockominiums in general have not had as many issues in South Florida as in some other areas of the country. There were failures during the worst times but most are doing ok today. There are some that have rental rates as high as 90% so the owners do fine even if not the slip user themselves. The difficulty in building new marinas has made existing slips coveted.
There have been some recent increased sales but generally at prices that made sense. The prices of dockominiums did crash, just like condos and houses. But now that they're being sold at more reasonable prices they're making more sense. A facility that took advantage of the boom was Port Marina (dry storage) and some of their 52' slips sold for as much as $300,000. However, today there are dry racks sold in Dania for $35-90,000, maintenance is only $140 per month and rentals are $900 or so per month.
For the most part there is a moderate inventory of unsold slips and/or slips available for resell in this area. This is quite different than areas like Coastal NC. Nearly every housing development built a marina with slips for sale. Many of those slips remain on the market unsold. Still, if I lived in the area I would buy a slip, even recognizing that it might not be the best financial investment.
That's about how I see it as well.
"there are dry racks sold in Dania for $35-90,000, maintenance is only $140 per month and rentals are $900 or so per month. " To me those numbers don't make sense, especially when you consider how little people use their boats and how often they move up or get out of boating.
My experience (I've had a few clients who bought in the No. Miami/Aventura area) has been that the buyers have been required to resell their slips through the condo assocs.. The condo assocs. had slips that they owned, and would always sell those first, leaving the owner/seller paying maintenance fees until they gave up and just walked away losing their investments.
With the LMC location, docking there puts a boat about an hour from the ocean. Doesn't look attractive to me.
I think it's like any condo or home purchase in a new development. As long as the developer still has properties to sell, you're not going to do well. Once the developer has sold out, it changes. Still, even while the resell is poor, you may find the rental ok, but this also is limited as long as the developer still has rentals. Getting in early may seem advantageous but is often not so.
As to the area across from LMC (It's working name was Pier 17), I felt the location was problematic for several reasons. The one you give is a primary reason. The docks were to accommodate up to 160' but a boat that size would be towed in and out of there. That means time and inconvenience. Not appealing either to a local or renting to a transient. I think initially this plan was hatched at a time there was a shortage of slips for megayachts. Since then the market has concentrated on larger slips. Every upgrade of a marina has traded smaller slips for larger. The second issue I saw was that Megayacht owners like resort atmospheres. They like nice restaurants. That area does not have those things. There are too many other places that do. Megayacht owners generally like to be in the lap of luxury. And view? It would be of LMC. Not my idea of a relaxing place to spend time on a boat.
Last the 8' draft (They say 8-10') isn't a problem up to a certain point but in trying to cater to boats over 130' it becomes one.
Now one thought that some people were suggesting was to not go megayacht but build a marina for medium size boats that wouldn't face the challenges.
I couldn't see where any of these ideas had great potential, not when the price was $36 million or when it was $18 million or when it was $12 million.
Now one of the ads once said "Phase 1 Sold Out" and I have no earthly idea what that represented. The reality also was that there would be only 11 or so covered slips and only 1 of those at the maximum size and 2 more larger ones but then the others not in the 150-160' range. The artist's rendering showed very poor access to the uncovered slips and no more than another 7 or 8 boats.
Selling prices of slips was to be $15,000 per foot (higher for the largest slips), but for a 130' slip that was to be just under $2 million. The promotion said that was still less than a house with a slip. Duh. Let's see, here could be the ad. "Buy a slip for the price of a house but no house to put up with."
Property is not always purchased as an investment. It can be a lifestyle expense, simply for convenience. I know people who paid many millions for a bayfront home just because it had a dock large enough for their boat. They never even once slept in the house. They used it to store boat stuff. Eventually I think they sold it for less than what they paid for it.
Yep, there are those, and a lot of them today. What I refer to as stupid money. It comes easy so wasting it doesn't matter. As you might guess that's not the world I live in. Still with this property there's the location problem. Can't imagine having to get (2) tow boats every time I want to go out for a cruise. Then again those megas don't move much. Even a 50 footer though is less than fun coming around Little Florida on a Sunday. Another thing about the location, I wouldn't buy a house up by I-95, much less want to sit on a boat there. Hot and buggy. Still have nightmares about the heat, humidity, mosquitoes and digging through the fire ants when getting my boat out from under that bridge after Andrew.
BUT, Florida is a different animal when it comes to real estate. People bought the swampland in the 50's & 60's, and the time-shares in the 80's & 90's. So I'm sure they'll be successful.
Could not be further from it, in this case. Family business with patented technology. Started from nothing and earned every dollar.
Not saying that nobody earns what they have, but many don't. Certain actresses, sports figures, trust fund babies and crooks (some jailed and some still sailing along) spring to mind. If you earn it you generally respect it. When it's 'money for nothing' you tend not to.
Ed, it's been quite some time since I responded to one of your "painting the picture with a black brush" posts. We know from where you come and we know your standards, principles, etc. But that doesn't mean the rest of the world is bad for not following your philosophies. Rich people are like everybody else: some good, some bad; some dumb, some smart; some lucky, some unlucky. Please don't make all rich people spending their money, regardless of how earned, into something less than they might be. There are a lot of folks, whether at the right place at the right time, hard work, or dumb luck that are able to buy extravagances that make their life easier. You call it stupid, I say: Go for it!
As to bashing the up-river marinas, I have my clients keep their yachts there because it is cheaper, safer, are not in mandatory hurricane evacuation zones, and the marinas I regularly use are professional and accommodating. I haven't seen a fire ant and the only mosquito bites I get are in my backyard at sunset.
Please lighten up on the sweeping and erroneous generalizations.
You call it a black brush. I call it clear coat. You may have missed where I wrote that I agree it's a good place to store a boat (I brought mind there before Andrew), just not a place from where I'd use one. You also seem to have missed post 17. There's a reason why things become generalizations, and I see no problem with that as long as you keep your eyes and mind open for the exceptions.
There is no stupid money, only stupid people...$$$$ like to feel safe and those who put them in danger usually lose them.