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From $2.00 gas to $5.00 gas in 4 years

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Codger, May 18, 2008.

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  1. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Airship, although I agree with your statement that "Oil prices will undoubtedly double over the next few months" because of what's going on, this is not the forum for political debate about world politics nor your well documented anti-American sentiment. It's about the price of oil and its effect on the world's population.
  2. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

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    The oil companies are using it against him? :eek: All along I thought it was the media, what was I thinking. I have spent quite some time in Caracas and Saudi Arabia back in the opening days of Desert Storm and know firsthand what pump prices were compared to ours back here at home. I guess Hugo is making up for his cheap fuel home at all the Citgo stations here in the US. Ah the old days when there were "pump wars" between neighboring stations, each trying to best the other to get business. Back then they couldn't advertise gas prices on signs so they used "cigarette" prices instead but everyone knew what they meant. Remember those days?You're quite correct, greed is keeping that from happening today especially with a commodity we have very little choice about.
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    One of my first jobs was pumping gas. There were 3 stations on that intersection and we were in constant competition with prices going between $0.26 & $0.27 a gallon. When you drove in we cleaned your windshield, checked the oil and transmission fluid, checked the tire preassure, you got "Green Stamps" and a real quality NFL or Nescafe glass coffee cup with a fill up of 8 gallons.:D Most of our fathers held one job, were home on Sundays and the wives were able to stay home to teach their children right from wrong. Tell me the world is better today.
  4. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Yes, the WORLD is much better today...
  5. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    NYCAP123 wrote:
    Oh yeah. The price of oil is not at all affected by global politics, and this is not "the proper forum" to discuss my supposed distaste of anti-US / or McDonald's burgers in any form?! And according to you, this subject is limited merely to its effect on the world's population. And there I was, narrowly thinking we were discussing $2.00 gas to $5.00 gas in 4 years, and thinking that this was somehow related to yachting. :rolleyes:

    NYCAP123, you made 2 posts in quick succession today at 3:27 and 3:38 without any replies in the interim, followed by another at 3:52. I appreciate that there are times when we all respond to our own posts because we might have got the false impression "that the world was somehow ignoring us". Please get a hold of yourself! And send me a PM as soon as you know that Israel will attack Iran's nuclear facilities (so that I can seek refuge in a sheep-farmer's cottage high up and faraway from the south coast of France...?! There's a decent chap.
  6. W. Arthur

    W. Arthur New Member

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    Face it Gents and Ladies: :D

    We're entering into a 21st Century global economic, energy-source, and climate change Vortex! :eek:

    This decade is going to be Wild... and... There ain't much we can do about it. So... sit back and watch the ride as we all do our best to survive. ;)
  7. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    For anyone not born and bred in an oil producing nation or the US, it is very difficult to understand that oil is a luxury, not a right.
    My first car rarely had a full tank. I would only manage to get enough fuel if I had the coupons (we had rationing due to a civil war and sanctions) and the cost was high.
    Forgetting the rationing side of it, fact is, as much as some who post like to believe, oil is a finite resource. There will be a time when there is very, very little left. As it is, extracting oil is so expensive that it is only viable to do so when the price is high. I agree with AMG, we choose whether to own a yacht or what car to drive. When Americans arrive in England they usually are amused by all the small cars, well guess why?
    As for your posts NYCAP, being a professional captain in a recreational boating industry in your particular region, is obviously becoming a redundant career. I sympathise. It is not the first career to become redundant in changing times.
    I run twin DD12V71T’s, they are very thirsty at “cruise” speed, so I run at hull speed most the time and have done the same with most the boats I have owned. If an owner or Captain decides to run at 30 kn, well then that is a price they will pay. Fuel costs in Australia have ranged from .85c a litre to $1.59 a litre over the last 15 years, so the boating community has adapted to the costs and we probably use our boats as much as the US boaters do, just a bit slower!
    FYI: there is another shock coming when it becomes obvious that much of the infrastructure that brings oil out the ground and to the refineries needs renewing. Most of this infrastructure has not been renewed for 30 to 50 years.
  8. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    I don't really believe that the cost of fuel is a very important consideration when it comes to the majority of superyacht-owners. When compared to all the other costs related to owning a modern superyacht: crew salaries and travel; insurances; berthing; management fees etc.

    Unless the superyacht-owner in question owns a yacht equipped with gas-turbine main engine/s etc., the actual fuel costs involved for the owner should almost always represent less than 10-15% of the overall ownership-costs under normal cruising...

    I remember when Adnan Khashoggi owned the Kingdom - 85m (ex. Nabila). She would be berthed in Antibes one day, only to turn up in New York less than 2 weeks later. "Those were the days" when even the Forbes founder had his own business tool (yacht). Presumably today, arms dealers and other business people have Gulfstream V jets if not larger Boeing or Airbus versions, by which they transport prospective clients.

    I live in fear today. Because a rich Arab prince might exceptionally (in view of current oil prices) this year give me one of his older Bugatti Veyrons. But how on earth could I ever afford to own one: a set of tyres costs Euro 20,000 usually replaced every 5,000km apparently.
  9. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

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    Ha! We had a lot of things at our house bought out of the S&H catalog! Other than delivering newpapers, my first "real" job was pumping gas too, albeit a little later than you :D I was the lucky guy who not only got to check the oil and tires but also ration gas out on even or odd plate number days. Us poor grease monkeys were always suckers for a pretty girl who couldn't seem to figure out if her plate number was even or odd and tried very hard to sweet talk us into filling them up anyway, in fact I married one of them. She still stays at home but is now raising the grandkids. OK, enough of this nostalgic talk, back to work! Gotta get that boat painted so I can go fishing tomorrow.
  10. sunchaserv

    sunchaserv Member

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    I filled up my car yesterday at the local Utah grocery store (where I got a $0.40/gal discount for buying goods there during the last month) for $2.75/gal. Boat diesel prices are running about $3.80/gal in the Puget Sound area if you shop around. We keep our diesel vessel in Canada but fuel it up in the US to save about 25% on average.
  11. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    You're absolutely right about that. However, superyachts are not the yacht/boating industry, but only one section of it. It's a very important factor for the guy with the 60 or 80 footer when he's deciding whether to bring his boat south for the winter or drydock it. Even more so for the guy trying to decide if he can afford the 35' or 40'. When you think about a company like Garmin or Raymarine this is their retail market. Companies like West Marine, Sea Ray boats and local marinas employ a lot of people. When you have people in all the 80' (even 100') boats down to dinghies wondering if they can use their boats in the way they enjoy, or even afford to own them at all, that affects a lot of people.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Obviously that decision involves some concern and calculation, especially when you consider what it costs to get to that cheaper fuel. I doubt that diesel price will affect your thought process much if it goes to $3.87, but how do you think it will affect you when that first number turns to a 4 as in $4.-- per gallon?
  13. W. Arthur

    W. Arthur New Member

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    In relation to fuel costs... matter of fact... costs of anything – Period!

    A glimpse into life of the relatively few "Haves" who create/run economic systems. Not of the billions of "Have Nots" who utilize/support the "Haves" economic systems.

    Ryder Systems Inc. Often referred to as Ryder Truck Rentals:

    In early 1970’s I was going out with a girl whose father was 1st mate (I believe that was his title) on James Ryder’s yacht. She and I got a tour as it moored in a Maine harbor. This was when I clearly realized that cost of the yacht, crew, fuel and nothing else mattered to Jim Ryder or his multibillion dollar corporation about that boat. The 124’ custom and almost new yacht was simply another tool for closing deals, a good one too I bet cha! Following is a bullet list of what I experienced on the yacht and what my girlfriend’s father told us about the boat and Ryder.

    - 124’ long, couple years old, white, beautiful, spotlessly clean – $7M to build / $3M to equip (super inexpensive by today’s standards – late 60’s early 70’s those were the good old $$$ days!). Peanuts of $$$ to a Billion Dollar Corp
    - Three tenders, each having a small cabin and fast – with complete side dock that when Yacht at rest was placed alongside and had sturdy gang plank/stairs extending to main deck
    - Relatively roomy quarters and a nice “entertainment area” for multi person full time crew, including full time chef and assistant that worked a state of the art stainless steal galley... err full on commercial kitchen!
    - Helm station with state of art navigation equipment that even back in early 70’s could be set for any destination and the boat piloted itself with Captain or a mate simply staying on bridge with watchful eye
    - Surveillance camera and sound-recorder system covering every portion of boat
    - Fully equipped engine room to die-for with the whitest spotless diesels and generators I’ve ever seen!
    - Dining room was enormous with oval cherry wood table that sat some 25/30 guests and that had a big beautiful Cut-Glass/Gold chandelier
    - Dining utensils in cherry wood buffet were of two qualities... for the general dinners, Sterling Silver... For special dinner guests – Gold! All hinges, door knobs etc – Gold!
    - Owners as well as guest staterooms - Gold hinges, door knobs etc and the heads’ fixtures were all in Gold
    - Crew would take the boat to any port instructed at any given time – that was their job and to otherwise keep boat in top shape while enjoying their seafaring trips and port stays.
    - Ryder himself only visited the boat to close hundred million dollar business deals – most recent one had been with Firestone Tire executives visiting aboard boat for two days in France.
    - Ryder’s deal making aboard boat only occurred a couple to a few times a year... but just in case the yacht might be needed to entertain for closing any deal the Captain and crew often were traveling to U.S. or foreign ports – In Case!

    Long and short it, in regard to ALL of the Super Rich - - > Costs of yachts are not even a spec on their ledger. Fuel could go to $20 or more per gallon and that would mean fueling the yacht is just a bigger write off / tax deduction! ;)

    It’s the general public, not the Ubber Rich, which need to be and are concerned about fuel costs. That’s our lot in life... unless of course we become Ubber Rich too!! :D
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Ed, If diesel went to $4 a Gallon in Europe I would buy a tank truck and fill it up.

    I passed a gas station this afternoon where it was shown as Euro 1.52 a litre that works out to around $7.65 a US Gallon so you folks in the contiguous 48 still have reasonably cheap gas and diesel compared to folks over here.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Even on the smaller boats, fuel is still 10-15% of the ownership costs for most owners. Most owners take their yacht out and run at cruise for an hour and then putt around for the day or anchor and swim. Has it changed things a bit and usage a bit, sure. But our fuel prices here in the US are considerably cheaper than most other yachting area's in the world such as Canada, the Med, the Bahamas, the Carribbean, Central America (Costa Rica, Mexico, etc) and others. Is the difference between $3.50 a gallon diesel and $4 a gallon diesel really going to stop someone from using their yacht. No. If that little bit of difference is going to keep someone from using or buying a yacht, they really cannot afford it. However, if it goes from $3.50 a gallon to $5 a gallon yeah.

    You're failing to realize the other ownership expenses have gone up a heck of a lot more than the fuel price. Look at your rates for example compared to 10 years ago. The price of insurance, dockage, bottom jobs, detailing (compounding/waxing), engine servicing, parts, mechanics and etc has more than doubled in 10 years, it's tripled. I remember the days I could do an oil change and fuel filters on a set of 8v71's 10 years ago and it was $500. Now it's $1500 with labor.......10 years ago, it used to cost 10% of the boats value to maintain it long term and that factored in re-painting the boat every 10 years, majors on the engines, etc etc...... that figure has blown right out the window nowadays when you factor in the re-paint cost and majors on the engines........Look at the cost of upgrading electronics every 10 years.
  16. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    That's called diversion, a sales tactic typically used very well by oil companies, car salesmen and mortgage bundlers. The answer is simple. Just because you're getting screwed more than me doesn't mean that I'm not getting screwed.
    Actually it's the diference between $3.99 and $4.00 a gallon that will stop a lot of people from using their boats. That's why everything sold on TV is $19.99 and not $20. It's also why the gas you buy is $3.999. Is that not the ultimate in greed? They make $41 billion dollars and they won't give up $0.009. Sometimes I feel like paying with a check and giving them $3.999 just to see how they get that last .009 from the bank.
    That's what it will be in NY and several other places this summer.
    We tend to think in terms of direct cause, i.e. I have to charge my client more because I'm paying more for food. But that food costs more because transportation costs, growing costs and the costs of operating the grocery store have risen. Operating that store costs more because it costs more to light it. If you follow that chain all the way back you wll find it end with 3 letters: OIL. There is only one way to truly address inflation, and that is to control the price of oil.
  17. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I don't think the sum solution is controlling the price of oil. Who in this world is going to be in charge of that controlling price?

    We've really got to put SERIOUS efforts into finding alternative energy sources for this earth,....like that big nuclear reactor out there..our sun....and our very hot earth core...geothermal. Alternative energy sources will bring competitive pricing to the markets of the world, and this will bring oil prices into some controlled pricing.

    I also believe we need to put bigger margin requirements on oil stocks, just as was done with silver about 20 years ago if I recall correctly. That would take some of the 'gambling speculation' out of the stock market pricing of oil. Require that investors/speculators OWN a bigger percentage of those stocks they are betting on, rather than leveraging so great a percentage of the stocks. Get control of some of this wild 'hedge fund activity' that is often driving prices ever higher on many things without creating any real sound value in our economy.

    BTW, you do realize that the entire IRAQ war was really based on OIL. No, we were not going to take their oil, we just wanted a 'friendly' government there that will be in charge of the current 'second largest proven oil reservoirs in the world'
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Each nation, separately and together must take over and control the price either through a concerted effort or through nationalizing the oil interests within their country. Then they can do exactly what Chavez did within their own borders. Same as OPEC organized to increase the price of crude and the oil companies monopolized the industry to crush competition, the superpowers need to organize with their allies and tell OIL what price they will pay or else they can leave it in the ground until it is taken away from them. If temporarily needed we have plenty of coal and natural gas, plus most of us have a fair supply of oil within our own borders.

    Alternative energy could have been a reality 30 years ago if not thwarted. Anybody want to guess who's behind stopping it? Could it be the same people who put independent refineries out of business to squash competition? What makes anybody think it will succeed before the world's population goes broke? Alternative energies will be allowed to progress and proceed exactly enough to give "hope for the future" but not so much that it threatens the stranglehold the oil interests have on the world. Let oil cease to be a profitable commodity and watch how fast alternative energy sources become mainstream.
  19. W. Arthur

    W. Arthur New Member

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    Wish I could print what I know :eek:...

    But, not allowed to on this forum. :(

    Breaks the rules! :rolleyes:
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    So ED,

    How do you propose that we control the price of oil when we are buying it from companies in a different country?

    We could control the price of oil if the EPA allowed companies to actually drill for it in our own country, could we not?

    Do you feel that it would be cheaper for us to pump and refine if we got it from our own reserves right off of the coast and pumped straight from the oil rig to the refinery?

    If the government allowed the pipeline from Canada to be built, instead of the Canadians turning to the Chinese to refine and buy their oil, do you think fuel prices would go down if our refineries had a non-stop supply of oil?

    Do you think that delivering a super tanker with oil in it from the Middle East is free and does not use fuel and cause it to cost more to transport it halfway across the world? I know one of the large yacht shipping companies pays around $600k for a 500' freighter for it's deck space just to ship yachts from here to the Middle East one-way, that's about 1/3 the size of an oil tanker. How do you propose that we have them deliver it to us for free?

    Have you thought that maybe the oil producing countries think we are greedy because we are depleting all of their oil reserves, while sitting on top of tons of our own oil, and instead of using our own oil we are buying up all of theirs, and they are taxing us for it because they know sooner than later they're going to run out?

    What should gasoline cost and why?
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