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Caterpillar 3412E Black Smoke issues

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Kishore Hegde, Sep 14, 2021.

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  1. Kishore Hegde

    Kishore Hegde New Member

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    Aventura, FL
    Hi All,

    New to this forum and appreciate any info that I can learn from.

    I am looking at a 1989 Tempest 60 sport sitting near Montauk, NY with I believe 3412E Caterpillar 1050 HP motors.

    Per the selling broker boat is unable to be sea trialed as engine loads up quickly and produces black smoke consistently.

    The broker thinks it needs Air Filters replaced and Turbos cleaned as well as maintenance brought current.

    The boat has been sitting for 2-3 years and the engines are run once a month or so at the dock from the little information I got so far.

    Not sure if they have been bottom cleaning the boat regularly or not.

    I am waiting on several documents and other info from the selling broker so I can get more insight on this boat.

    I am pretty confident in doing the basic maintenance like changing the engine oil , filters , fuel filters , zincs etc but have not worked with Turbos or any other major engine issues on a diesel.

    If I can get to a deal on this I will be driving "captain" the boat back to Florida so I will need to get this running in NY or CT.

    The owner of this boat is an older gentlemen so he has either lost interest in the boat or he has other reasons for selling.

    Questions:

    1. Does anyone know an independent Caterpillar diesel mechanic in the Freeport / Montauk , NY area.

    I called the Caterpillar dealer HO Penn and they want $280 an hour from the time they leave their office and $3.25 a mile for travel expenses. Not sure but I thought diesel mechanic labor is in the $125-150 range not double that?

    When I spoke to the service manager and asked about cleaning the Turbos his response was we don't clean turbos.

    2. When a sea trial is not possible and the seller is not able to or willing to get the boat into a condition for a sea trail how would you approach the offer. I have not seen the boat in person yet.

    The listing price of the boat is $79,500 - I asked the broker what the sellers bottom line was and he said $60K. But based on everything I am seeing I don't see this worth more than $45K as I see probably 20-30K to get everything current.

    Engine hours state 450 hours so I am not sure if these are rebuilt engines since they are 32 years old.

    3. Is there a way to check the Turbos turbine intake and exhaust side without removing too many things?

    4. Any Caterpillar specfic things I should inspect when I look at the boat.


    I appreciate any feedback in advance.
  2. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    They don’t clean turbos they rebuild or replace them.

    “Newly listed beautifully kept boat by owner” says the listing. The photos and 427 days on market suggest otherwise.

    Do you like fixing stuff or paying to fix stuff? All the time?

    Parked for 2-3 years means lots of surprises once you start to dig. Surface drives! An owner that doesn’t want to make it ready for trial run.

    I’ll bet that rig is minimum six figures from being capable of travel.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2021
  3. Kishore Hegde

    Kishore Hegde New Member

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    Aventura, FL
    Hi RER:

    I can do some stuff but I also know my limits and I will probably need help in many areas on these diesels.

    How are you able to see that it is on the market for 427 days? Also this was with a few different brokers as I saw it originally listed a couple years ago for $115K then $99K.

    I find it comical in this industry how sellers / selling brokers always state how much has been invested in a boat and can never show any maintenance records or receipts to backup their words and always have some excuse and think you are going to take their word for it.

    How are these engines reliability are they easy or difficult to work on?

    I am assuming new Turbos are $5-7K and rebuild are probably $3-5K for the parts plus labor costs to install.

    I don't know any mechanics in that area and HO Penn's $280 an hour I can't justify paying that labor cost no matter how good they are.

    Am I out of line to offer 45K or is that too high based on the initial facts?
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  4. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    CAT 3412 is a good marine diesel but not good enough to go without maintenance for 2-3 years and sit at the dock in a state of disrepair.

    Just turbos, heat exchangers, after coolers, and water pumps alone will run more than $40K per motor to bring those CATS up to serviceable condition. And that’s not counting what the motors need that you don’t know about.

    Then there’s the rest of the boat including the neglected surface drives. It’s a project boat. Some people match up well with project boats. Some people shouldn’t touch them with a ten foot poll.

    What’s it worth? Honestly next to nothing in it’s current condition. The value of this boat ultimately, will be a fraction of what you’ll have invested in it.
  5. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Boatwizard shows the Active listing days to Brokers. But only for the current listing.
  6. Kishore Hegde

    Kishore Hegde New Member

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    Hi RER:

    Are you a broker?

    From what your saying and what I have read anytime a boat sits for extended periods of time usually causes more issues and unknowns with engines and generators.

    I was reading an interesting article on engine hours vs marine age and how marine age can result in far more issues than high engine hours.

    I am looking for a semi project boat not one that is falling apart but I am ok with one that needs some work to get it to acceptable condition as I would like to update the interior etc to my liking most boats from the 80's have a very dated interior and electronics.

    I wanted to add that I am looking for a liveaboard / office and something fun as this boat has a 30+ knot cruising speed and 48 knot WOT I am sure that this maybe overstated and will probably drink 115 gph at WOT.

    Whatever boat I end up with I am looking to keep for 20+ years so resale value etc is not in my equation I will write off the depreciation to having fun and look at overall costs divided by the 20 years.

    I am a stickler on maintenance I am currently restoring 2 cars and I only put genuine parts on the car if available unless an aftermarket part has proven to perform better than the genuine part.

    The NADA book value is $94K , If I need to spend $60K to get it to that condition then I would offer $35K for the boat as an example.

    I am not desperate for this boat just want to gather as much information so I can throw an offer on the table and see where it goes and what I can expect in estimated costs for repairs.
  7. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    3412Es in 1989??? Yeah right. I think the earliest Es were around 2001/20002. RF1 *

    don’t know if the running gear is clean? RF2 *

    clean the turbos? RF3 *

    “The Broker Thinks”? RF4 *

    NADA VALUE? ROFL

    restoring 2 classic cars... so you really think that prepares you to tackle this project? Lol. Been there done that... refitting an old boat is a whole new level The engines are just the beginning

    you can do oil changes? so... you know how many oil / fuel filters and gallons of oil are needed for a pair of 3412s, right ? 10 filters and 50 gallons of oil inc gears

    Are you talking about this gem?

    https://www.montaukyachtsales.com/boats-for-sale/1989-tempest-60-freeport-new-york-7513186/

    If anyone wants to shoot a remake of Miami Vice, they may rent it as a prop. Hopefully they ll blow it up at the end

    Don’t get me wrong... the 3412s are great engines but the black smoke is the least of your worries




    *
    RF means Red Flag. Or... Run Forrest (Run)
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    In the pictures, anybody notice the drive saver in the shaft coupling?
    Tempest fixed angle surface drives.
    Boat was not that fast or rode that great either.

    Mechanical 3412s.
    They are not 3412Es.

    6 digits to fix.
    Boat is near worthless.
    Insurance, Ha, Good luck.

    Think of it as a pile of obsolete, not working & non supported hardware (scrap).
    Whoever has been sitting on this boat has been wasting big money on dock rent every year and it has not sold. That should be a good sign for you.

    You would do better spending that $175k on something you can use this coming weekend instead of a year(+) fixing this dog up.

    Sorry to poo on your post.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    If she's the one in Pascal link, while reading it my first thought was that $79,500 is actually too low.
    That is, the owner should pay me more to take her.
  10. Kishore Hegde

    Kishore Hegde New Member

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    Hi Pascal, Capt Ralph, mapism I appreciate your input.

    So what happens to all these older boats they just get sent out to pasture?

    I will not be doing all the work myself hence why I asked if anyone knew an independent Caterpillar mechanic in that area.

    I know there is a big difference between cars and boats and if something requires more experience then I am willing to pay for the services.

    As mentioned I am not tied to this boat just trying to gather information I have been on a few forums and have discussed other boats and I notice most don't like project boats.

    I am also not tied to resale value so if it costs me $250K in maintenance and repairs over 20 years and I can enjoy the experience and have some fun

    I understand insurance, docking fees , fuel and other expenses are not part of that $250K that I discuss above.
  11. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    I'd expect to spend that on my 28' center console in the next 20 years.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A broker took a 58' Arneson boat from the same vintage on trade without the ability to seatrial her. She was a running/driving boat. We spent $100k just getting that boat mostly right by the time everything was said and done. I'd expect every bit of that, if not $150k. It does have Veems on it, which is a bit strange and someone spent some money on her at one point in time, but certainly not lately.
  13. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I hate to pile on here but agree with others, just from pics this thing looks like it is ready to be parted out and sent off to the deep blue. You said you haven't even been aboard yet? I think 30 mins aboard will have you running for the hills. And what about a survey?
  14. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Arneson drives are actually the only thing I wouldn't be worried about, because there's none on that boat.
    OTOH, it's easy to guess that those surface transmissions could make Arneson boats easy to maneuver in comparison - enough said...! o_O
  15. Kishore Hegde

    Kishore Hegde New Member

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    I appreciate you guys giving me the reality that is why I am asking the questions as you all have done the trial and error in the past.

    With the reality I can then decide what options are comfortable for me and my wallet.

    Has anyone been on one of these Tempest sports I know there was a limited run of these made.
  16. bayoubud

    bayoubud Senior Member

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    I second being paid to take the thing. Did you see the distance between the engines, what you get with 15'4" beam and 3412's. LOL
  17. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I think what you are not getting is that fixing a boat like this is going to be a lot of guessing.. Pay $15K to rebuild turbos and then you find out that wasn't the problem and its an after cooler... And that's going to happen a lot ... There's no way to tell what exactly needs to be fixed and what doesn't... Run from this boat.. It will be a huge mistake... BTW even if you spend $150k fixing her, no one will want it after the fact...
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Yes, I have been on the Tempest opens. They run fast or slow. With the un-trimable surface drives, there is not much in-between speed.
    They were old dogs years ago, this one an old log.
    A lot of them sold. Babe catchers for sure. But the Miami Vice Scarabs ran circles around them.

    I guess you have to fill us in, What boating plans do you have and how will this old hollow log fill those ideas?
    Have you owned any larger boats before?
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    And a drive saver (rubber pad at the coupler).
    These may be helping keep some vibrations down.
    There is a problem back there. Probably a loose T drive or bad transom holding it.

    The Veems just added another $5k to the boats scrap value.
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    being a rare boat is a liability not a plus. Again this is not a classic car where rare or limited run makes one desirable and worth more. Oddballs like these are worth less because they are unknown