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Catastrophic delamination on a new Bertram 63'...

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by Pascal, Jan 21, 2009.

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  1. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Oh dear, a bit in the newspapers today says that not only is Fiat(owners of Ferrari/Maserati/Alfa/Lancia) is totally debt-ridden but also that Ferretti has had slow payment and cancelled orders, a large part of Italian GDP will be lost for the next year. It should not be just an auto bail-out that is needed but also a marine one too in the E.U.

    Yesterday Jaguar/LandRover along with GM Europe and Honda/Nissan UK got a sort of bail-out, with some real tiny smallprint, was made available but nobody could understand it. The lawyers are working on it overnight, god bless'em, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
  2. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    Lets put all the BS and speculation aside. I inspected the 63 in question in person, the news is not good. What you see on the port side is only a small part of the problem, the starboard side is as bad. It just hasn't ripped apart yet. There are lamination and general construction issues that are INCOMPREHENSIBLE. If I was a 63 owner (or for that matter if I owned ANY bertram built in the last ten years) I would have a surveyor check the entire hull, sound the hull, take moisture readings and get some core samples just to be safe. I can't say much more but you can put to rest once and for all the rumors that the boat hit something causing this delamination, that is CERTAINLY not the case.
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Judging from Fishtigua's post just before this I'd guess that speculation is a long way from put to rest. But I that's what lawyers are for right.
  4. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    They're on this like white on rice, the fine bar members that I saw at the boat all had $$$$$$$$$$$$ signs in their eyes.
  5. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Materials and Processing

    It is quite obvious that un-bonds (vs. dis-bonds being something that was previously bonded ) at the core-skin interface just above the chine are present. This over stresses the outer skin (multiple plys of solid fiberglass not properly adhered together) resulting in large areas of delamination.

    Poor engineering, materials and/or poor workmanship are hazardous. Remember the Titanic, a steel vessel - it however did not make its way back to port safely....:)
  6. n4nln

    n4nln New Member

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    the value of secondary bond strength...

    talk about an advertisement for building with epoxy...

    -mo
  7. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Thank you, please read my replys on page 1, hastily written; it was one of those fast moving threads. Looking at the laminate, as most of the guys at the yard now have, where is the woven roving? You may as well have a chopped-strand gun and a chuck it and hope engineering attitude.
  8. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    This is a knit biaxial laminate not woven. The free strands you see in the photo confirm this. Most likely 24 to 36 oz/yd^2 and most likely 2 plys with 3/4 oz/ft^2 mat between, plus 2-4 oz/ft^2 of mat skin coat. The 'core' was bedded using putty. This would be typical of a err on the heavy side comprimise hull side lay-up for this size vessel.

    I agree with you last sentence.
  9. taksan

    taksan New Member

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    This is really really useful information as I was seriously considering signing a contract this week for a 63'
  10. waburpee

    waburpee New Member

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    Does anyone know the surveyor who attended this vessel?
  11. Buckeye David

    Buckeye David New Member

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    profit only company

    this example shows why large manufacturing companies are going down the tubes like Ferritti. Quality is not an issue. Small private held manufacturing companys who care about quality and reputation RULE. these large companies may show $ on the balance sheet but do not provide the knowledgeable boater with the quality required-- are doomed. please support small ( less than 20 boats per year companies) and buy from a small builder who cares about your investment and your safety.
  12. SHAZAM

    SHAZAM Senior Member

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    The boat was not surveyed when it was new, it was surveyed by a GANG of surveyors and naval architects/engineers this week.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Malcolm Elliot surveyed it after this happened (I was told), he has a great reputation as a marine surveyor.
  14. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Most of this is obvious from the photos except the extent the rest of the hull is affected. I have to say that this boat did hit something... ...water.
  15. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    This is hitting something.

    sea mount at 500' +/- below surface.

    Attached Files:

  16. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Would anybody be dumb enough to trust one inch of this boat after this? I can't think of anybody who would trust Bertram or any Ferretti vessel after seeing this. They should have already been in the yard with a big check and chainsaws. Thank god they don't make planes.
  17. apex1

    apex1 New Member

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    Nahhh go on! I like the same stuff Look here:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/11121

    None of them will delam ever!:D
    Regards
    Richard
  18. apex1

    apex1 New Member

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    Cold moulded IS wood anyway.:)

    Regards
    Richard
  19. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    I do not own a Bertram, nor do I have an financial interest in Bertram or it's business activities. However I see no reason to doubt Jiannina's statement at this time, and the call for buying from "smaller builders" has no real merit IMHO. I was just hauled out and visited with the capt/crew of "500 Hundred" supposed hull #1 of the 67's (who were next to me). They were quite happy with Bertram and the boat.
  20. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    The frustrating thing is that this type of construction is not new. ( The Z65 is +/- 20 years old ) It is difficult for those of us in the business and devout hobbyist to understand how 'experienced' people can have this happen. Sometimes when pioneering you land 'face down in the prairie with arrows in you back', but that anecdote does not apply here. I hope that it is only a '1 boat' issue - not only for Bertram/Feretti but for the rest of us that have to explain this type of event to our customers.
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