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Boat Tax in Italy for Foreign Owned Yachts

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by david_japp, Dec 10, 2011.

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  1. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Law has few ammendments coming!

    No tax to foreign flags.
    Reduction to older boats up to 50% if over 30 years old.
    No tax to charter companies and builder, or brokers with boats in stock.

    Basically this is all propaganda to the masses in my book.

    If this passes in its real form it is madness, without the above ammendments.
    Italian builders gave over 3 billion direct money to the government in 2010. Should be same result in 2011. In period 2005 till 2008, they gave over 5 billion with 6 bill in 07.
    This tax with the situation how it is, current boats in Italy will give 500 million the most. If many yachts move it can be less to 200 million.
    Are these really economists who are managing us or not.....
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It says right here that they are taxing foriegn flagged also:
    "The newly appointed Italian government has presented parliament with
    a set of austerity measures to save the Italian economy. As it stands,
    boat owners / users (including foreign visiting yachts) will be
    subjected to a daily tax for the duration of their stay within italian
    waters.

    So let me understand this, they are going to tax Italians to keep their boats IN Italy, when they already taxed the boats with a hefty VAT tax when they bought the boat? This will put the Italian boat dealers out of business.

    You know, when times are tight and money is tight, I (and I think most other people) first look to cut expenses and spending money on things that are not needed. Why can't these governments do the same?
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I think the answer to that is quite simple if you look at whose pocket those cuts would have to come out of i.e. politicians and things that will hurt tourism, both untouchable.
  4. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    Would anyone present (and who preferably has not already contributed to it previously) care to (re)-read this thread, starting from the beginning and post any comments?

    So far as I'm aware, david japp started out with:
    So far as I was concerned (still am), this or any "new taxes" involved represented some form of "cruising tax" aimed at foreign-flagged (non-EU flagged yachts) and which these yachts would have to pay when cruising Italian waters. What "direct benefits" does the port of San Remo in Italy say, gain from a 2 week charter commenced in France by a non EU-flagged commercial yacht and ending in France but where the cruise was almost entirely conducted in Italian waters? Under the current French Commercial Yacht Exception regulations (apparently considered illegal under EU rules - the European Court of Justice has the case in hand), these yachts would more or less have been able to purchase all provisions, fuel, spare parts etc. required for the 2 week charter in Italy (without paying any VAT or sales taxes in France where they were temporarily-based).

    Italy (as France with their unfair FCE rules) will eventually have to accept that there are EU fiscal regulations which they must adhere to. david japp might well wish to consider re-registering his yacht with a EU flag, and paying the VAT on his yacht. What should be clear is that the Italians should not treat EU-VAT-paid yachts any differently from any other Italian-flagged yachts berthed within Italian ports or navigating in Italian waters. If the Italian authorities eventually decide to tax both Italian and other EU-flagged and VAT-paid vessels on the same basis, that would be fair. But they should not be allowed to differentiate between Italian or EU-flagged vessels (VAT-paid).

    Would anyone present (and who preferably has not already contributed to it previously) care to (re)-read this thread, starting from the beginning and post any comments?

    So far as I'm aware, david japp started out with:
    Italy (as France with their unfair FCE rules) will eventually have to accept that there are EU fiscal regulations which they must adhere to also. david japp might well wish to consider re-registering his yacht with a EU flag, and paying the VAT on his yacht. What should be clear is that the Italians should not treat EU-VAT-paid yachts any differently from any other Italian-flagged yachts berthed within Italian ports or navigating in Italian waters. If the Italian authorities eventually decide to tax both Italian and other EU-flagged and VAT-paid vessels on the same basis, that would be fair. But they should not be allowed to differentiate between Italian or other EU-flagged vessels (VAT-paid). Whereas a "cruising-tax" on just non-EU-flagged vessels would be fair, or any "cruising tax" applied to all (both Italian-registered and other EU-flagged vessels with "permanent berths" in an Italian port) would also be fair.

    So, if you personally-own a yacht (almost regardless of size) but which you wish to permanently have berthed in a EU country, there are straight-forward means of ensuring you don't have to pay any VAT on a temporarily imported yacht, provided it's always used privately and not for charter. Otherwise, why not just pay the VAT on the yacht value, especially as in david japp's case:
    . I should mention that the renewable "temporary importation procedures in France" are reserved exclusively for non-EU nationals and non-EU residents (mainly all the Arabs who like to berth their yachts here in France all year round)...

    So far as all the personal insults directed my way are concerned (I didn't find any serious grammatical errors or spelling mistakes in my previous posts here in this thread), well I reckon that at least a few posters here might well have ulterior objectives. I'm not going to waste my time itemising every post involved. Their excuses for their lack of arguments and valid debate will be accepted by YF nevertheless: airship once admitted he drank, therefore all posts from this individual are worthy of ridicule. Talk about "character assisanition" on YF - the CIA should take private lessons from some of you.
  5. YachtFish

    YachtFish New Member

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    I believe it is starting from the 1st May 2012 (and not 2013)

    Rates and rules of application are still constantly changing. Latest ones so far see the following:

    a) euro 5 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 10,01 metri a 12 metri;
    b) euro 8 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 12,01 metri a 14 metri;
    c) euro 10 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 14,01 a 17 metri;
    d) euro 30 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 17,01 a24 metri;
    e) euro 90 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 24,01 a 34 metri;
    f) euro 207 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 34,01 a 44 metri;
    g) euro 372 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 44,01 a 54 metri;
    h) euro 521 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza da 54,01 a 64 metri;
    i) euro 703 per le unità con scafo di lunghezza superiore a 64 metri.


    50% reduction for sailing vessels (boats with a ratio of horse power and sail area not greater then 1:1)

    Also, yachts lying in a shipyard for works and maintaince are exempted from the daily tax payment, only for those actual days work is preformed on. (I believe the each yacht will have to pay for all the period of their stay, and once the work is completed, upon sending proof to the authorities on the actual days the yacht was undergoing works, a tax-credit will be issued to be deducted from future payments of the tax).

    There seems to be no reduction yet regarding the age of the vessel (big mistake!)

    There have been already several versions published but the final one hasn't yet been seen. So all changes (for better or worst) are still possible.

    So far all the yachting industry members in Italy are really going through a panic moment as this will probably result in a further worsening of the already fragile weak market. Just think of all those superyachts currently wintering in Imperia, Genova, La Spezia, or Viareggio. Soon the owners will call in their respective captains to start the engines and move away ASAP.

    Lets not forget that only in Italy, the yachting industry directly employees almost 100,000 people. And this without taking into consideration all "indirect" workers that gain their living (or part of it) thanks to the visiting yachts during summer season and wintering too (stores, restaurants, bars, etc. ).

    What influence will this new tax have on these people, over the benefit (if any) for the Italian government to be gained? I'm afraid to know...

    France, Spain, Croatia, Greece, Malta, Turkey and other major Mediterranean countries will probably send wonderful gift basket over Christmas to the guys behind this tax....!
  6. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

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    New italian boat tax on foreign flagged boats

    Dear AIRSHIP ...FYI My boat is British flagged (ie EU registered) and has had VAT paid on in the UK on the full value of the boat together with VAT on all works undertaken and equipment fitted. In addition Ive paid the income tax on the money Ive earned and used to pay for this boat ...exactly as many, many, ordinary boat owners have done.

    I dont know (or care) if you drink or not but your comment about the proposed new taxes being "very reasonable even underpriced " is frankly ludicrous and either born out of envy or ignorance, or perhaps even, as some other YF posters have suggested, alcohol abuse. In any event, and for the avoidance of doubt, these proposed taxes will be levied on all boats, whether or not EU flagged, and even if their owners are not Italian residents. In other words a, say, French or British or even American flagged/owned boat will pay the local taxes in its country of origin and then, when the boat comes to Italy, either permanently or in transit, pay the proposed Italian taxes - matriculation, cruising, "wealth" or whatever they choose to call it - on top!!
  7. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    david_japp wrote:
    I've yet to find any valid link/s concerning these "new and proposed Italian taxes" from any poster in this thread hitherto. Perhaps david_japp (as the originator of this thread) at least, would be so kind as to post his own links to say, any official Italian govenment or other "official websites" etc. from where interested parties could also download the details for further study and before any further comments?

    No, I don't especially envy yacht owners (or superyacht owners) today. I realise how so many of the more recent yacht owners have been hoodwinked by a whole network of industry professionals into believing that they could afford to own such objects. Superyacht ownership once belonged to the restricted realms of individuals who didn't need to ask the price (if you need to ask the price, you probably can't afford it...?!), who used their yachts for 1-2 months of the year and never considered the idea of chartering out their yachts for profit or having complete strangers sleeping on their beds in the Master cabin. Perhaps I am truly ignorant, though I endeavour not to be when required or necessary in my day-job. But I'm not drunk all of the time. So I much prefer to leave you with this quotation linked to Abraham Lincoln:
    Hic...
  8. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Does anybody else realize that this thread is "The Wealth Gap Widens", just under a different name? The world's economies are in trouble. The rich scream at the mention of any tax increase. But there is zero sympathy for anybody who can afford a luxury like a boat when people are sleeping on the streets. The poor are fighting cuts in services because they're fighting for their lives. There is a great risk of the poor rising up as has been seen in several nations over the past year or so. Face it, the taxes and the cuts are coming. Grumble and groan all you want but they are coming. They have to because the money has long since been spent. Many if not most places in Europe and America are still borrowing money just to pay the interest on the money already owed. The thought of actually paying the principle never even enters a politician's mind. Everything is done to just get through today, short-term. Our parents have spent our future, and we've spent our children's. We're heading into a new world and it's going to be painful. Maybe instead of all the grumbling and groaning on both sides somebody should start looking to the long term for solutions. Otherwise nobody is going to like what the future brings. The 10m boat owner is grumbling that this tax will keep them from being able to cruise while a 90 year old woman living in a trailer will be trying to survive the winter with no heat. Hard to compare, and very hard to care even the slightest about the grumbles or especially the threats from the 50m or 100m yacht owner ('you know how much my boat brings to the local economy' the answer to which is obviously 'Not nearly enough') .
    No solution here, just a morning venting. I'd just really like to hear someone talking about a solution rather than just grumbling about how the symptoms are affecting them. Maybe we just need to heed the words of Shakespeare. "Neither a lender nor a borrower be".
  9. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    All I know is that taxes isn´t the solution, rather the problem, since they affect the poor a lot more than the rich. But we don´t need yet another political thread I think...
  10. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    NYCAP123, I have to disagree with you on some points, though do not dispute the overall validity of your general discourse.

    1)
    . Not quite all of them. I give you Warren Buffett for example who quite recently expressed that he paid I think 17% taxes on his considerable income compared to his secretary who paid about 33% on her much lower income - and that the richest individuals in the USA like himself, should be paying more. Or even some of France's most richest individuals, who have also recently expressed similar desires in order to "share the burdens" more appropriately given the recent troubles.

    2)
    Or even 15/20/25m or greater boat owner, and what we're normally discussing here in this thread?!

    3)
    I have to seriously disagree with that. If there were no lenders or borrowers, there would be no means to reasonably sell and/or redistribute surplusses of crops by farmers, capital or whatever else in good times and/or expecting to receive foodstuffs, capital or whatever in return during the bad times, globally-speaking. I believe that's the 1st lesson of capitalism and I've always adhered to that. Nevertheless, "unreasonable profiteering" should be avoided. What I consider unreasonable includes how so many financial institutions paid out (and continue to pay out today mostly) huge bonuses to a limited number of employees (superyacht owners?) based on so-called profits but which left these institutions finally begging for help from the taxpayer to avoid bankrupcy (or else merely benefit from taxpayer provided funds and provisions) made available to all these institutions at taxpayers' expense and risk. There is also that huge imbalance whereby over the past 2 decades, the proportion of total national income in most 1st World countries going towards the top 10% has more or less doubled, instead of CEOs earning 10-40 times the annual salary of their average employees, their salaries (together with those of their fellow cohorts), these CEOs today earn the equivalent of 4,000 times the average salaries of their workers, and still nsist on "golden parachutes" and other deals which together effectively ensure that in the event they're ever fired, they'll probably never ever have to work another single day of their lives once compensated (compared to ordinary workers, who dependent on which country they're located in) can at best look forward to the equivalent of 1 week's salary for every year worked in the company (yes, even in France)...GRRRRR?! :mad:

    And why perhaps, I do after all, have little patience or understanding for yacht owners who basically feel that they shouldn't pay any VAT at all (a whole industry developed around offshore tax-havens just for yacht owners wishing to avoid paying it), whether on the value of the yacht itself or just their expenditures during cruises etc. I recall once cruising in Greece back in the late '80s, where in a secluded bay, I came across what looked like several hundreds of small-medium sized cargo-vessels, all moored together and obviously obsolete. If today's yacht owners can't or won't pay additional cruising taxes, then perhaps there's a Greek "graveyard" available for such yachts today? Or else, they might find new areas of the planet in which to berth and/or cruise with their vessels. I could suggest North Korea. Uhmmm OK, well what about Nigeria, or Djibouti / Eritreia (they speak Italian there david_japp...). Oh blow me?! Why didn't you say that you could only afford to own a twin turbo-prop aeroplane like the Beechcraft or small Gulfstream / Cessna jet with limited range with which you could commute to your yacht in Italy etc. You have to pay VAT on all the aviation fuel don't you? There I was, thinking that all yacht owners had Gulfstream V aeroplanes at their immediate disposal, with which they could land at a suitable airport "within tender collection distance" of their far-flung and non-cruising-tax paying yachts in the farthest corners of the globe and which didn't impose any such taxes.
  11. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

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    boat tax in Italy

    Is the YF intended to be a forum for political diatribe or to share information and opinions on yachting matters...If it is the former I'm off!
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It's really quite simple in my opinion. There are plenty of places to go cruising other than Italy that are nicer than Italy. A lot of yacht and boat owners (since they're taxing small boats also) are going to tell Italy to go piss in the wind and take their boats elsewhere.

    So when the marina's are empty, the cafe's are empty, the grocery stores are empty, the taxi drivers don't have fares, and the local stores aren't selling clothing and etc. All of these hard working poor and middle class are the ones that are going to suffer. Not to mention the middle class guy that has a 35' sailboat to take his kids out on, that can't afford the extra $150 a month tax. Whatever revenue they'll take in, they'll lose tenfold in lost revenue elsewhere. Are they not getting tax on the dockage, the fuel, the goods, the food, and everything else that guests and crew of these yachts buy?
  13. PropBet

    PropBet Senior Member

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    But boat owners in Italy are actually part of the middle / working class.
    Most owners only make €20K / annum

  14. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

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    italy boat tax

    why should the level of Italian tax evasion affect foreign owners of foreign flagged yachts who want to cruise in Italian waters ...

    more importantly what has all this got to do with yachting ? ...lets get back on track
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Because I'm sure that a lot of Italian owners have their yachts foriegn flagged for tax reasons.
  16. PropBet

    PropBet Senior Member

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    This man gets it.
    The same reason droves of US citizens don't US flag their boat.
  17. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

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    italian tax

    you don't get it ...Yes, perhaps Italian residents should pay Italian taxes on boats regardless of where flagged ...That's an Italian issue and not my concern

    But why should people who are not resident in Italy and have no commercial or legal links with Italy, have to pay tax on their foreign flagged boats even when cruising through Italian Waters...that's like making a, say, US resident pay Italian Tax on the value of his luggage when he's on vacation in in Italy, or even when hes in transit through Italy?
  18. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Italy

    It gets worse, my brother in Ireland built his own 32 sail boat, ( lots of free stuff) decided about 10 yrs after to do a trip to France, checked with customs and was told "if you cannot prove VAT paid on the vessel, no entry" a declaration of value was not acceptable, may have gotten worse by now, although, as always I do stand to be corrected.
  19. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Because they want to cruise through Italian waters. If they don't want to pay then they don't go to Italy. Simple enough, although I think you'll see the same thing popping up in Spain, Greece, France and any other popular cruising waters of the Med pretty soon after Italy breaks the ice. I'm sure part of the reason for this also is that residents foreign flag their boats to avoid Italian taxes. They're simply closing a loop-hole big enough to drive a yacht through. Of course they could just increase the taxes on the marinas which would be passed right along to the boat owners, but then the marina owners would be the only ones hearing the screams when they doubled their rates overnight. Your tax on luggage is a good example. The airlines are heavily taxed so they now pass it along (with their other expenses) by charging for luggage. Whether it comes in the form of a direct tax or an indirect rise in rates, it's coming. But this way the only ones to gripe will be foreigners and Italian tax dodgers. Neither a group that will garner much sympathy among everyday Italians who vote.
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    This tax is as stupid as suggesting the US should charge a daily fee to all foreign vessels incl. those flying flags from the BVI, canada, marshals, etc Why should I have to pay X euros a day if i go cruising the med and they shouldnt when they come here?
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