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Bertram Closing Merritt Island Facility?

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by Trinimax, Sep 15, 2014.

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  1. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No, most builders are just not good at going from small to very large in size overnight, and usually it does them in.......I can think of quite a few builders that have met this fate......

    I am not a Riva guy, but do like the ones called a Super Ego.......kind of matches the people I've seen driving them.....LOLOLOL As your ego grows, you trade up from a regular ego to a super ego......
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Well, Riva already has the 122' Mythos. But a 122' boat with a range of 400 miles just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Still that type boat seems popular on the Med. The 160' is going to have surprisingly small engines for Riva. Might be popular, just not for me.

    I guess I just get confused when builders go so far out of their norm and their successful range, especially when they have sister brands covering those ranges. Of course one thing they do is get the larger boats built in one of the other plants. I'm imagining the 160 will be built alongside CRN's.

    I just hope it doesn't lead to future neglect of the smaller Riva's. Oh and it's actually an Ego Super but there is no Ego. Guess Riva doesn't want to appeal to just an ordinary Ego.

    Now, as to what any of this might mean for Bertram, no idea. If they did revive Bertram in Italy however and followed pattern then they'd add bigger ones too.
  3. franzmerenda

    franzmerenda Senior Member

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    Actually the facility in La Spezia was the last one to be ready for production less than ten years ago.
    Previously many Rivas have been made in Forlì, where Ferretti is based.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Yes but since then they've had their own facility while the remainder of the group has shared. But it is Ferretti's strategy to put boats where they make the most manufacturing sense regardless of which plant. I could easily picture Bertram being built in Italy. Whether it would be successful in the market, I have no idea. But I can just as easily picture it just staying closed or being sold and becoming an even smaller semi-custom builder. I would think it's going to be hard for them to remain so tight lipped about it through FLIBS.

    Meanwhile there are at least 560 used Bertrams for sale.
  5. franzmerenda

    franzmerenda Senior Member

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    Can't even imagine a SF manufactured here.
    You guys have production boats that actually are semi-custom products.
    With our labor costs, a 60 footer could come close to the new Viking 92 selling price.:D
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Well, two of the largest boat manufacturers in the world are in Italy, so somehow it is working. Benetti and Ferretti build a lot of boats. Now profitability is an unknown. At their current volume levels, I could see Bertram being less costly in someone else's plant than in one of their own. However, that could also make them the neglected stepchild as Cabo found out with Hatteras.

    I do know of one prime candidate for purchasing it in the US but not sure what interest he would have in a line that's currently not being produced and has no facility. He tends toward liking operating businesses. But the family does love Sportfishing.

    Actually I think the worst of all options is for Ferretti to open another US facility for Bertram. Why would one expect that to be any more successful than things have been, if under the same management?
  7. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    And it's the least likely option in my opinion.

    In addition to Bertram's shut down it appears Cabo has been put on hiatus as well.

    In the old days you had to be wealthy to own a boat. But for the past 30 years or more many midsize, or even large sportfish owners have been guys with a decent business or profession that could afford a really expensive toy - but not necessarily wealthy. I've known guys who had a $800K sportfisher and a $200K house. Don't know how they stayed married but they just had a passion and they paid big money to pursue it. Today most of those guys are gone.

    There is a sea change in the way people in this country are living.

    Boomers don't have the same confidence in the economy they used to have and are more averse to risk. Buying a boat requires a mind that is occupied by a certain amount of optimism. Optimism is in short supply.

    The next generation of boat owners? Forget it. Young people would rather use public transportation than drive a car. They prefer renting in urban settings rather than buying a home in the suburbs. They have no desire to own anything except the next iPhone. They spend their leisure time mostly staring at small glass screens and typing. Many think fishing is mean.

    Overall yacht sales have been trending down for six straight years and shows no sign of turning around anytime soon. Add the decline of interest in fishing and the hit to the sportfisher segment is compounded. Demographics are changing. Whether the economy improves alone may not be enough.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    From what I'm seeing I tend to agree with this viewpoint and all aspects of it. Even on a small scale. I bought a 15' Boston Whaler dauntless for my two little brothers 15 and 17, about 10 years ago. They didn't even want it, they'd rather play video games.

    Also it seems that expensive toys are being more and more demonized.
  9. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    It is not "false" and is actually open and transparent, the numbers speak for themselves. Their really was no "point" to prove.

    The C30 engines were standard, the test boat had the upgraded C32's at 1800 hp as stated, which are now available at 1925hp. Look it up and read the numbers (data). So you are saying PMY is faking its' boat test, interesting...........

    I assume that 1600hp is a typo? And you can upgrade to the higher Hp C32's which are in the PMY test examples. But if you could share a sea trial test, it would tell the whole story. You neglect to supply rpm. Earlier you stated 1750 rpm, which is 75% throttle if the boat hit 2350 rpms. I think you are sand bagging the numbers some what, there is a little bit more speed to be had at cruise, and yes some increase in fuel consumption, and a sea trial report would show the whole picture.

    That particular example was handy, as it published the cruise speed/rpm/fuel consumption. If you have others that show all three, feel free to share. It is not false.

    Now you are yelling, relax, have a beer and reduce the blood pressure. Feel free to compare whatever you want. No one, including myself, has said the custom SF's of old and new are not more efficient than a production SF. We all agree on that fact, so no need to get so worked up.

    But as a Hatteras homer, you know they are more interested in targeting better rough water performance than WOT Speed. So maybe we can both wait and see how the new Viking 70 performs, as a closer but most likely less fuel efficient twist between classic custom / modern repower vs. modern production / modern engines example. Still apples to oranges, but thought provoking, nonetheless.

    You will note that I said Cat Cay (Glory) Days. Not sure what that means to you, but I certainly go back to the Merritt/Rybo and newly created Jim Smith days of the 50s/60s/70s, where the smaller nimble SF designs were focused on herding Bluefin Tuna in the shallows before the drop-off.

    But if one of those 57' Revenges you reference was manufactured in 1992, the same year they canceled the long running Bluefin Tournament, then you and I will have to disagree on what the "glory" days of that fishing lore were.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2014
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The 2012 Hatteras was at 80% load, I think rpm's were around 2050 if I remember correctly. It burned 120gph at 31-32 knots. The Power and Motoryacht test was screwed up and a typo. If you read the article the speeds were taken in MPH, when they transposed those they accidentally made it NM instead of MPH on the fuel economy........ It's pretty sad you compared a 60' SF with a 71' SF to try to make your numbers work and the custom is still more efficient. You quoted the 1750 rpms/31 knots in your post. Perhaps you could find a 60' custom SF to compare your 60' Hatteras to. A Bayliss, Silky or some others you'd be able to find in the 60' size....then your comparison wouldn't look so good.

    The revenges were built in 1987/88. Cookie Murray's boat is one of them......Cookie Too, perhaps you've heard of it.
  11. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    RER, I would have a tendency to agree with you, at some level. However, you fail to realize that the top 10% of the richest people will still continue to buy boats. I just read (maybe here) that Angelina Jolie and her hubby just spent 250 million on a Yacht, plus kicked in another 50 million to "make it their own" The Gen X kids don't have a clue to what true wealth is...their "value system" is as screwed up as our current administration. They don't know the value of a dollar, nor do they care. They think that "Big government" will take care of everything. The Carver's and the like could possibly go away... but the boating industry will continue to flourish. You know the old saying "The rich keep getting richer, and the Poor keep getting poorer." Don't get me wrong, Mega Yachts wont' be the only thing that survives your theory, this government has decided that the middle class has to die, so that they have to become more dependent on the government. They have gone a long way to making that happen. But People who have money and know how to make money, under any condition, will continue to purchase boats, both new and used. Wow...O.K. time to crawl off my soap box.
  12. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    So Revenges were built in 87/88 according to your maritime wisdom. Doesn't seem to match the data (facts) here:

    Revenge 35 Light Tackle | Yachting Magazine

    Or here:

    1992 Revenge Sportfish Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

    Cookie Too sure seems to be a 1992 model, but hey, I am sure you have the inside track and are more accurate than these sources.

    Sad??? Come on J, just bring some accuracy to the plate, that's all, and drop the revisionist history bit.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I was going off of memory and a lot has happened since 1992 or 1988 in the world. Honestly, you're simply splitting hairs. The fact of the matter is the production boats use a lot more fuel to go the same speed or less size for size than most of the custom SF. You can scew the numbers all you want, but it is fact.

    Take the Hatteras you posted. It's 60' just a hard top, 31-32 knot cruise 120gph at 80% load......closest custom I've run was a 2003 63' Sonny Briggs with Mans, at 31 knots it burned 90gph. I could go look for tests on a Bayliss or Tribute (only because they have built several in the 60' range) to compare apples to apples........

    But you simply focus on splitting hairs because your point is not valid. I don't have the time to do it right now...I'm far too busy...I have to go run a 62' Sunseeker, then unload a 50' KK later tonight from a ship, then run that to Stuart tomorrow, then load 2 oil rig crew boats on a ship the following day (I hope as they might load earlier).
  14. franzmerenda

    franzmerenda Senior Member

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    For one sitting behind a desk for a living:
    True envy!:mad:
    ;)
  15. jhm466

    jhm466 New Member

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    Very sad tale...grew up on Bertrams; 26, 28, 35, 35II, 42, 46. Their website is just the logo now, no pages, etc. and the Facebook page goes to Ferretti. Ferretti's page doesn't list Bertram as one of their brands. This happened in just the last few weeks.

    Remember those Viking ads in the 70's and 80's..."Look out Bertram and Hatteras, someone's gaining on you" Well, they did something right and Bertram did something very wrong. Sad tale indeed.
  16. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    Bertram did a lot of things wrong...one of them was selling to an Italian Paint company...don't know who or when, but prior to that just quit the desire to build a quality boat. I think the Bertram name has changed hands very close to a dozen times over the years. The only way the name Bertram will ever mean anything is if the "suits" decide to sell it to a real boat lover, who is willing to tweak the hull design and build a bullet proof hull, along with the rest of it...build it right, all the way down to every system, and offer her out to the press, and give a lot of free rides to the Sport Fishing clan, and maybe Bertram will become something more than a poor joke.
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Were they ever a quality boat? Bertrams from day one have always had issues with soft decks, soft floors on the flybridge and on and on. Their wiring wasn't always the best either.....You look at Hatteras of the same era, fiberglass fuel tanks, good wiring, no structural issues with the cockpit or flybridge......
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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  19. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    Hi J, Back in the mid 70's I had a buddy who owned a Bertram, we took his boat over to Bimini for a week of fishing. Things got snotty when we started getting close to the hump, and stayed that way all the way into Bimini. We were running 25 knots through 8-10's like they weren't even there...the boat didn't shutter or pound, just blew through them like they weren't there. I was very impressed, albeit a bit concerned. I asked if we should throttle back a bit...all I got from him was a small grin...and a head shake nope. I'm familiar with their problems, but I'm guessing this was one they got right. We didn't sleep on the boat though. Maybe he was more aware of her short comings than I was.
  20. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    I agree J, Bertram may have had a great hull design for their time but that's about it . The electrical systems and main panel looked like spiders webs or pasta bombs and most of the panels wouldn't open fully due to short wire looms and packed panels. The glass work as a whole was sloppy and thin for the cabin trunk and fly bridge. The "Matt tabs or the ragged roving folds left" in the bilges or overhanging a bulkhead or frame would cut your arm off while reaching behind or trying to fish a wire or hose between bulkheads.
    I used to to watch the Cuban yard Captains with their little head band mounted sun shades run the new launches down the Miami river for sea trials before a tower or hard top was installed and was impressed by the sheer number of launches but it wasn't until I worked as an electronics installer and then a systems tech for Electronics for Yachting in Ft. Lauderdale during the summer months of high school that I understood just how sloppy these boats were put together system wise compared to the competition of the day. Hatteras was the Gold standard engineering, electrical and plumbing wise & Chris Craft and god forbid "Pacemaker" were better built system wise than Bertram hands down from a technical point of view with out speaking to what manufacturer would knock a 4 to 6 ft. head sea flat in its tracks.