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B60 performance with 3412’s

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by CWV, Aug 1, 2021.

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  1. CWV

    CWV Member

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    FEB? Enclosed Bridge?? No. It's an open bridge boat we're under contract on.

    There was a B60 EB I looked closely at in FL last winter. It is a project boat basically in need of a full refit; however the owner wanted top dollar, thinks she's a 9.9/10, and did everything possible to cut out his own broker out, including de-listing the boat. That boat will likely drain someones bank account in a hurry.

    For anyone following along and interested in the same vessels, the two B60's which are lowest price at present are DD16V boats in need of full refits. I crunched it 6 ways to Sunday and can't see how to get your money back out of them even if you got the hulls for free.
  2. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Gears are 2.030 : 1
  3. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    I agree there’s not much point in negotiating survey findings if you don’t want the boat due to unsatisfactory performance in the first place.

    “Some prop shops tend to increase pitch while reconditioning to achieve the appropriate RPM at WOT - - this could potentially lead to the type of performance loss we're seeing”


    ...did you mean decrease pitch?
  4. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Perhaps. I guess you missed this part? ha ha ha "(another fact: I'm beyond my competency here)"
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    If the props on the boat are 50" of pitch, and you're turning 2320 with 2.03:1 gears you currently have 32% prop slip right now, so definately something going on there. If prop slip was 20% you'd be at 37.4 knots, 15% of slip 40 knots. See if the owner is willing to slap the other props on, and seatrial again. It's doubtful you have Veems, they're most likely Michigans or Federals and after 20 years.....well.....time for replacement if performance is what you're looking for.
  6. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Wow.
    If the engines were man enough to spin 50' pitch props at 2300rpm with that gear ratio, she would be a speed demon.
    Assuming a slip in the 15% ballpark, she should reach about 40 kts!

    Back to planet Earth, whatever the pitch of the current wheels, it's easy to guess that they fitted some much shorter ones in order to reach the rated rpm, 'cause she wasn't anywhere near it with those Rollas.
  7. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I didn't read your post before writing mine, but my understanding is that the SPARE props are 50", while the pitch of props currently installed on the boat (albeit obviously shorter) is actually unknown.
    CWV likes this.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    True, but I'm assuming they're the same....... hence the IF

    OP: ask your buddy what size props they have.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I see.
    I assumed the opposite (i.e., that they are NOT the same) just because otherwise, as you pointed out, the prop slip would be unreal. But IDK, obviously.
  10. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Ferretti Era Bertram.
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I have commented before that prop shops grind off the diameter when the blades get thin.
    There is just to much required in the last few inches and is lost.
    Years later the question "What Happened?" comes to surface.

    Rolla's are another fine mfg that has magic in their wheels, rare prop shop that can include this back into the wheel during repairs. Certainly not while loosing diameter.
  12. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Buddy boat is swinging 32x50 - 5 blade veems, not rollas. And it’s a tower boat with fishing gear and davit. This open bridge should be faster, in theory.... maybe not with the rollas
  13. CWV

    CWV Member

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    thank you for this information. I’ll remain optimistic seller will work with us on this, as well as the other deficiencies inherent with a 20 yr old vessel which has an undocumented maintenance history.
  14. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Is it just me or does a 32” diameter prop seem small for a boat this size and up? I’m swinging 32” props on my 54 with a lot less hp. Yes, I have larger wheels than Original but still, having to go to 50” pitch just seems odd to me. I wonder why Bertram didn’t design these to be able to take a bigger diameter wheel? Maybe this is normal in sportfish boats in this size range?

    And regarding the “undocumented maintenance history” ; I thought this boat has a CAPT since it was new? Are you saying the same CAPT that told you it was 5 kns faster has not kept any records for 20 years? Or is this the same one that said all records were lost in a hurricane 5 years ago?
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Rollas is one of the top prop manufacturers, perhaps even ahead of Veem. BUT, you're talking about 22 year old propeller technology versus now. Also, who knows WHAT prop shop has worked on the existing props. I've seen props get touched by a prop shop for maintenance, not even damage and the boat lose 3 knots......Rollas really need a really good prop shop to work on them, much like Veems, not Joe's propeller shop down the street.
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  16. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Good question. Capt'n and Broker were on the boat when sold new to Seller. It was used under agreement for regional boat shows for a few years. 10-20 years ago, owner liked to run it himself, so captain was rarely used on any regular basis. From what I pieced together, Captain appears to have been retained for annual winterization and minimal maintenance over the past 5 years, and possibly for the rare fishing trip offshore during course of ownership. Boat has otherwise been a yard ornament docked behind owners house the last few summers and hauled out in the winter. Captain has NO records. Detailing, when it took place, was subcontracted out.

    Based upon your feedback, I'm going to get the hull to shaft-center measurement when the boat is out next time, thinking maybe the diameter would change. This info will get relayed to prop shop along with all performance details once we know the prop scan details.

    I may know today if the deal is dead in the water or not, but mechanic just confirmed software is in fact 1400HP and that there weren't any concerning alarms in the history of motors (unless they were cleared by a CAT tech - - however seller hasn't really ever had CAT tech on the boat from what we are told)
  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Unless the deal is really good and allows for spending quite a bit in the next few months, I would walk. There are two many red flags

    surveys, no matter how good they are, can not reveal everything and neither will a 30 minutes sea trial.

    the lack of maintenance records is a huge red flag. A dock ornament? That s another one. No cat tech on the boat for years? Seriously ?

    I going thru this right with the Lazzara 116 I run. We had the exact same red flags waving except that in our case this is exactly the boat the owners wanted to upgrade to and the deal was really good making it worth spending the money. In the last 2 months I ve been going thru every system on board incl air con, watermaker full rebuild, shorepower system issues, alfa Laval filtration, clogged air handler drains, generator service incl leaky water pumps. Full trac stab service , at least what could be done in water... coolers had not been cleaned in years so system ran hit after an hour or so... A bunch of outside latches on lockers were loose with cracked fiberglass. The list goes on.

    Oh and did I mention a full in frame on one of the 16V2000? and yes the engines were surveyed by MTU specialists and passed oil/coolant analysis. The other one will have to be done too but waiting till after hurricane season

    In our case, since the owners wanted a skylounge we didn’t have much choice. Lazzara only built 2 100+ skylounge and the other one is in Dubai or somewhere out there. In the end after all the work they will have the boat they needed.

    In your case though, I would really look for another one or make sure the price allows for all the needed repairs
    CWV and TahoeJohn like this.
  18. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Interesting. I’ve had surveyors tell me to walk from a boat like you describe. The mechanic of the yard did too. But some lessons in life you have to learn the hard way. And sometimes, twice. Or maybe 3x. And just when you get her perfect it’s time to sell her and move on.

    Well, fortunately the mechanic and two surveyors gave me a big thumbs up on this deal, and perhaps some peace of mind comes in knowing neglected is better than being abused (someone will undoubtedly disagree). Anyhow, props are at the prop shop and we seatrial again next week. I know what I’m up against and there’s not a better deal in this crazy market for the price point and type of boat I’m presently focused on. Maybe if I double my budget, but then again, every boat eats bank accounts.. just some do it faster than others.

    So what’s the first 3 years depreciation on a new 58-62 Viking these days? Thinking I may still come out ahead. Ha ha ha
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    have the prop shop measure the props. IF they measure 50" of pitch and the spare Rollas are new and untouched, put them on without a prop shop touching them. Most prop shops don't know how to recondition rollas without losing several mph.
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  20. CWV

    CWV Member

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    Spares may have been originals... they were out of spec when measured and do require tuning. I spoke with tech, owner of the shop for 40 years and got a good vibe. He agreed with all the technical details outlined within these posts relative to prop slip, speed, etc... said his goal is to get to 10% or not more than 15% slip. I’ll be one happy guy if we hit 37kn and ecstatic if we see even more. We’ll see.

    I plan to measure current props once we remove them from the boat and seatrial the reconditioned 32x50’s.