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At what size will insurance allow single hand operation?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by FerrusManus, Aug 24, 2021.

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  1. FerrusManus

    FerrusManus New Member

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    Basically generally is there a clear cutoff point where insurance providers will require hired crew to operate the yacht as opposed to letting the owner handle the yacht for themselves?

    Like for instance could one owner manage a 60 foot by him/herself?

    And how about an owner couple handling an 80 footer by themselves?

    And could a motivated family with kids old enough to be useful manage a 90 footer?

    At which point in general do insurance providers make it a must to have paid crew?
  2. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I can answer affirmative to all 3 of your questions citing examples. However, it depends on your experience! For example, if you have owned small boats, and then purchase a 60 footer, insurance will most likely require you to hire a captain until the captain "signs off" that you are qualified to skipper your own vessel. If you are moving up from a 50 footer to a 60 footer, not necessarily so.
  3. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Depends on where you are and your experience.

    Typically 70/75 is where most will start requiring a full time captain but there will be exceptions. The question is more like will you be willing to spend all the time required to clean, repair etc. yes you can hire day worker for a number of jobs but when an impeller goes on the generator in the middle of a 90 degree night or an air con pump goes kaboom in the middle of lunch...
  4. FerrusManus

    FerrusManus New Member

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    Ah ok. Well how much labour would go to for an owner couple for a 70 footer in terms of cleaning, repairs, etc... while cruising the yacht around?
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    It depends on the boat and on your personal standards. I d say one to two hours a day
  6. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    Sail or Motor?
    Really the answer is the same. A lot. An owner couple will never have nothing to do on a 70, 60, 50 and even 40 footer. Not that everything to do is mission critical but there will always be something to do. That is just the nature of it. I don't say this as a negative at all. There is so much to learn and gain self satisfaction in this process. It is taking me years to get to know this and I now expect to be doing something for the boats at all times if I so choose. Balancing self labor and hired labor is how I prefer to do it. For instance, I used to wash my boat. Now a hired crew does that. I can't tell you how lovely it is to arrive to a clean boat, not to mention the ease of keeping her clean when done on a regular basis. I could go on and on. Yesterday I was in the engine room (I clean that as I want to be hands on down there to keep tabs on everything) I noted a damp area next to a stringer, surface water. There was a small drip from above. Turns out on of the cockpit scuppers was leaking around the fitting. I took it out to discover it was simply seated on a flange with a black rubberish gasket that had deteriorated. No biggie, I was able to fair it with epoxy, sand it, and bed the scupper with 3M 4200 fast cure and I am now leak free. Well, leak free for now. You see, there will be another leak somewhere.
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    It's also the timing of the labor. While you may not do as much as professional captains like Pascal would do, you still face the boat being covered wish salt spray after a long run outside. You're tired from the long day already and would prefer to go straight to a restaurant, but first you need to wash all the salt off and chamois the boat dry. Oh, and it's already 8:30 PM. Sorry it took 2 hours and the restaurant closed before you made it.

    As Judy said, people are doing all three things the OP indicated. However, not my idea of pleasure boating to spend hours just on basic upkeep. There are people who love taking care of their boat more than the boating itself.

    An owner managing a 60' themselves. Pressing the upper limits.

    A couple on an 80 footer, depends on the couple. If they're both fully committed and capable of everything including captaining then ok, but otherwise not. The couple must both be active, involved crew themselves.

    Family on the 90 footer, works until the kids have better things to do and you can't go boating. The reality is most people have jobs and other activities and depending on anyone to always be with you is not wise.
  8. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Not much to add to previous - all valid - comments.
    But I hope you don't mind if I challenge your question a bit, 'cause you seem to imply that you are interested in the largest boat that can reasonably be handled with no crew.
    Now, possibly against the common thinking, my personal attitude towards boats is that you should look for the smaller size which is large enough for your needs, not the larger one that you can afford, or that the insurance allow you to handle, or whatever other reason where the focus is on "larger".
    And the very simple reason is that keeping a boat afloat is hard work, bound to give headaches proportional with her size. To put it bluntly, why should you go for a big headache and suffer it yourself, if you could have someone else getting sick on your behalf? :)

    BTW, I see that you are based in Finland. Apropos, welcome to the asylum.
    It's always nice to have someone else challenging all these Americans who pretend that FL is a good place for boating... :p
    Back to the point, by sheer coincidence, a couple of Finns friends of mine sprung to my mind when I read your OP, because they fit perfectly your description of a motivated family with kids old enough to be useful in managing a boat.
    But theirs is a 43 footer, and their cruising experiences (which I had the privilege to share, in one occasion) are nothing short of epic, if you see what I mean...
    gr8trn likes this.
  9. FerrusManus

    FerrusManus New Member

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    And also considering probably that if one has to rely on having the kids willing to boat in order to operate the **** thing, then it's probably a safer bet to either go for crew or smaller boat because it's not fair to the kids or the parents when the kids get old enough to enjoy their weekends somewhere else than with their parents.

    And also thinking about it, wouldn't it be risky to get a boat the size where a minimum of a couple is needed to operate it safely if one of the couple is incapacitated by accident or illness? So wouldn't that make an 80 footer risky when let's say if one of the couple operating it was incapacitated by let's say a very bad case of norovirus, etc... and couldn't focus on operating the boat?
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Both good points. Now incapacitation is always a risk and that's where my comment on both being fully trained and committed and capable comes in. One can single had an 80' if the other is incapacitated and safely get it to shore. But that one must be fully capable.
  11. FerrusManus

    FerrusManus New Member

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    So wouldn't this mean that instead of getting an 80 footer to operate by a couple, a 70 footer might be the better option? Especially when in terms of amenities both sizes are quite similar.
  12. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    "Operate" the thing is just the fun part.
    If you're planning to have no crew at all, I'd be more concerned about the upkeeping part, i.e. everything the boat demands before and after operating her - and in many ways, regardless of how much she's actually used!

    PS: just to put my comment in perspective, myself and my wife have been living aboard for anywhere between 5 and 7 months/year in the last decade, with zero crew.
    But every time we simply wash our 56 footer, we regret not having something smaller.
    And that's without even starting to consider more demanding maintenance!
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    50 60 70 or 80 feet makes little difference when it comes to handling or even single handling Regardless of size the captain needs to put the boat in a position where lines can be passed ashore. The size doesn’t make much of a difference. Whether 60 or 90, one is not going to manually wrestle the boat in position

    What is far more critical to ease of handling is the boat layout. A boat with a pilot house on the main deck and doors on each side is probably the easiest to single or short hand as you are within a few steps of your spring lines. On the other hand a flybridge boat without controls in the cockpit will be the most difficult regardless of size

    same with walk around decks. I d rather single hand the 84 MY I used to run than 60 footer with extended deckhouse and no side deck.

    As to incapacitation, yes both husband and wife need to be able to take over if needed and at least get the boat out here help can be obtained. It s one thing for a spouse to be able to dock the boat while you re standing a few feet away. Now if you re dying on the pilot house floor ... the psychological pressures will be tremendous. My instructions to my wife are clear: call for help and get the boat outside whatever marina or harbor, and drop the hook.

    but again, it s not about size it’s about layout.
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    It all depends on how they intend to use it. If regularly having 6 guests aboard, then go bigger, if replacing a 8000 sq ft home, perhaps bigger. Also, crossing larger bodies of water but then definitely need to add crew. Either way if owner operator couple very dependent on both and either one must be capable of getting safely home without the other.

    While we normally have crew on anything more than our 44', my wife and I are both trained equally.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Pascal points out what so many miss that running the boat just doesn't change much on size. It's all the other things. We go from 44' to 130' and operating the boat, running it to safety, just isn't much different. It's like a 900 sq ft apartment versus a 9000 sq ft house, living is the same but maintenance is sure much different.
  16. Brian G

    Brian G Member

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    As a relatively new yacht owner (four years), this has been the biggest surprise for me. The amount of time and money it takes to maintain a 20-year old 70 footer, in my case, has been overwhelming at times. Boating is such a wonderful experience but it doesn't come without a price. For me, the boat has brought tremendous joy and satisfaction but it also takes a lot of work. All worth it but better to be prepared going into it than not.
  17. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I spent the first 42 years of my life boating on a lake, boats up to 30'. It was simple. As you move larger then you have to weigh the amount of work you're willing to do and the amount of money you're willing to spend paying others. Those both have breaking points and differ for everyone. I'm willing to do far less than many myself but spend more on professionals. Some are willing to spend hours every day on maintaining their boat and enjoy that as much as running it. However, it takes labor, either your own or someone else's.
    Brian G likes this.
  18. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    It also depends on where you use the boat. For instance in the Bahamas pretty much every marina has a couple of guys ready to watch your boat as soon as you dock. Great for an owner operator couple. I use them sometimes so we can take better care of the guests.

    same with interior cleaning... we ve never had issues finding a cleaning lady in the Bahamas when short on time to get the boat ready.

    There is no doubt that a bigger boat cost more to maintain but it also also easier. I believe Brian has a 70 Johnson; I ran one for 8 years so I m intimately familiar with the engine room and the systems. It takes me half the time to do the same the maintenance tasks on the 116 Lazzara I run now. I no longer bang my head on the ceiling or have to crawl in a corner to reach a genny impeller or squeeze along the front of a hot engine to access a fresh water pump.

    bigger boats also have redundant systems so often if something fails like an air con pump, genset, water pump etc you can just switch to the back up. As an owner operator you don’t have to abandon you family on the spot to fix something.

    so many factors.
    Brian G likes this.
  19. gcsi

    gcsi Member

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    Ferrus:
    My wife and I operate a 75 Hatteras MY without any other crew. I've had a number of other boats under 60' and had no problem insuring the 75.

    While I enjoy hands on maintenance, I will hire out the task when time does not permit me to accomplish same. I DO NOT enjoy washing the boat, consequently, I hire a crew to wash every week or after use and try to pre-arrange the task when we cruise.

    If we will be going a longer distance and need to crank out miles rather than enjoy the voyage, I hire a mate and or captain to assist with the trip.
  20. FerrusManus

    FerrusManus New Member

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    And also finally what would be a comfortable size for a yacht that one can go take out cruising by themselves with some room for redundancy? Like is there significant difference in handling let's say a 50ish footer Princess vs 60ish footer Princess in North Sea or Baltic Sea like conditions?