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Air replacement.

Discussion in 'Post Yacht' started by Rover1, Jul 21, 2016.

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  1. Rover1

    Rover1 Member

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    Well if finally happened. Went to the boat today turned on the AC. After a while I noticed that my upstairs was still very warm. Put my hand over the air vent. Felt some what cool. Put a heat tester to it. It's coming out at 81 degrees! Down stairs has always kinda just trickled out so always thought that one was going. Just had this unit pumped with gas about a week ago. Must have leaked out. So what unit can I put into this boat? figuring what's in there is no longer available. Anyone have any prices on what a replacement would be? Drowning in sweat over here.
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    What do you have now? I would replace it with same brand......either cruiseair or Marineair (both owned by Dometic). Do you have a split system or package unit (everything in one)? I'd stay with the same BTU's if the previous unit cooled well enough......go larger if you had cooling issues before and have the room and power for it.
  3. Rover1

    Rover1 Member

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    right now I have a 16000 BTU upstairs and a 10000 downstairs they are boat cruiseair. on humid days I use to see ice almost on the windows last year this year I saw it once. Do they even make the ac units that came in these boats new anymore? All I am seeing are self contained units now that don't look like my big blue units. im guessing ill be better off replacing both at this point as the one downstairs in the state rooms just seem to trickle out at this point has done better now that I put sun block outs under the hatches.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    They still make split units, look on Dometics website it has the list price on there as well. The package units are easy to install but don't seem to have the lifespan of the split units. I would replace with Cruiseair, you're probably going to have to replace the display/control which is additional.
  5. Rover1

    Rover1 Member

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    Going to check out Dometics web site. I would rather put the split unit back in if I can. I figure the two in there now made it 36 years. I got the boat from the original family that owned it who I keep in contact with and they said other then maybe topping up the gas just a few times in those years they never touched the AC units. I have the 3 knobs to control still. Ive been looking around the boat and really cant seem to find a place to put a self contained unit into. Thank you for the point in the right direction.
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I would get in contact with a few good a/c guys in your area and get quotes. The copper lines on the split system are going to need to be brazed, vaccuumed down, and charged. Need to check what voltage your units are etc. and going to have to update to new controls. The SMX II display usually fits in the same place as the old 3 button knob ones.
  7. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    FWIW, I think self-contained units are simpler. Many of our owners club members have replaced aging units with Dometic "Vector Turbo" units and say their better (cooler, quieter, easier install), no rust from condensate, and in many cases they've been able to re-use existing control panels. (I suspect that's not likely with 36-year0old controls, though. It'd work for our 14-year-old units.)

    Not a recommendation, just observations and thoughts...

    -Chris
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    If gas was added on recently make sure the valve and cap isn't leaking. May be worth having someone check the unit with a sniffer to find the leak. While it may not make sense to repair an old unit, depending on where the leak is it could be done.

    Also, when it the last time the coils and hoses where descaled?

    Start with the basics first. I assume you checked the water flow outside.

    In my experience these old blue cruisairs will last much longer than the newer ones. I am amazed to see how many are still ticking, yet the new ones seem to require new compressors every 5 to 8 years.

    I m not a big fan of self contained, they are louder but they are indeed much simpler. I am going to redo the entire system on my 53 this winter and will be switching to chillers. Mor expensive than splits but more reliable with better redundancy.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    At 36 years old, I wouldn't spend a dime on the old units.

    The self contains do cool very well. I manage one yacht that has 6 of them, we replaced one 2 years ago with a new R 410A marine air 16k btu and the temperature coming out of the vent is 34F, that one had a compressor failure at only 7 years old . We just replaced 2 more out of the 6, 1 was shot, coils disintegrated, the other was working ok but not large enough for the area, but the steel pan was getting to be in poor shape.

    Pascal, I'm not a fan of chillers in your size boat for several reasons. It takes a lot more energy to run 1 chiller sized for the whole boat, (better have a 2nd chiller too) if you just want to cool off 1 stateroom or the salon. Or if you lose shorepower, it takes a good while to get the loop temp down AND cool off the entire boat with chillers. Even with soft start compressors, you're burning a lot of amps to have the unit cycle on and off, just if 1 a/c is calling for cooling. They also tend to always have a chilled water leak somewhere and always have to add water to them it seems........ And my biggest gripe is either the entire boat has a/c or heat, not both.
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Couple of years ago i bought a 16k marvair self contained because I was fed up with spending a fortune patching up my splits. It was on sale for $990 and is still ticking :) although a little loudly

    Frankly in SoFl i don't care about heat :). I need hear a couple of days a year in the staterooms and if that's the case I certainly don't need AC in the saloon

    If anything a couple of chillers will actually eliminate the start up surge of individual compressors. As to leaks, can't be worst than a gas leak. At least I can find and fix a chilled water leak
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Don't forget in South Florida all of the chilled water lines should have 1" thick insulation around them, so that makes routing them a royal treat on a retrofit. You'll never find the coolant leaks usually, as a lot of times it's a drip or two here and there etc. etc. Is it coolant or is it just sweating etc. etc.
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Condensation and Coolant should have one crucial difference- Coolant should have an antifreeze in it which in my experience adds colour to the water which makes the drips easy to identify
  13. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Is start-up surge really a big deal? Neither of ours trips a breaker...

    FWIW, there's some kind of control in our overall system somewhere so both units (shared pump) won't start at the same time; don't know where that is or what it looks like, but at least we never see 2x (simultaneous) start-up surge...

    Another FWIW: When I opine that a self-contained system is simpler, that's partly influenced by having two of 'em in place now... so that, for us, a one-for-one replacement could be very quick and easy, re-use plumbing, etc. Replacing one of our current systems with a split would be more work. Perhaps easier to replace a split with a split -- if that's the starting point anyway?

    -Chris
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A package unit is easy because you just hook up electric, the water lines and the controller and it's ready to go. Usually the new package units aren't much bigger than the split air handler you have now.

    A split is more work even though you have one because you have to remove and mount 2 units (compressor and air handler) and also because you have to braze (weld) both copper freon lines at the air handler and compressor unit, then vaccuum them down, then add freon till you get to the right amount. But if you have a split, usually you replace with a split.
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Start up surge is not an issue with smaller units but we have a 48k btu split on the boat I run (saloon) and sometimes it takes a split second for th generator to catch up when it starts. The brief drop in freq and volt sometimes causes the water maker to shut down or some electronic appliances like the dishwasher to throw an error. I've had cases when we re running a lot of things where the drop was enough for the compressor control to shut it down, and try to restart again a shot while later. Newish compressor, good generators, fresh filters, start capacitors checked, etc...

    With chillers, chances are you will always have a couple of air handlers in cooling mode reducing the cycling.
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Not an issue in my case as the chillers will be in the port ER with very short runs up to th saloon or aft to the master. The longest run will be to the bow staterrom but the piping will go thru the Genset room so there is plenty of room. But yes, I can see how converting most boats will be an issue.
  17. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    Chiller loops are 90 % H2/0 and 10 % food grade glycol that has a Blue or Red dye additive to trace any "loop leaks".
    Insulating the supply & return lines of a chiller to fan coils or the suction & discharge sides of a direct expansion unit require a few basic techniques to make for a drip or condensate bleed free install or retro fit.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah, I'm aware of that. Beard recommends I think it's a 15% Glycol mixture, but have seen green, but either the blue/red/ or green is pretty faint color at a 10% mixture. A faint blue drip in a bilge that has dark grey bilge coat can be pretty hard to notice sometimes.

    Retrofitting a yacht under 75' with chillers can be a complete nightmare, you're running 2 1" hoses throughout the boat that are covered with 1" thick insulation, so all in all about a 3" hose. I've done them before. Yes you can get them so they don't drip/condensate but routing them in a retrofit of a yacht that size can be a nightmare through bulk heads and everything else.

    I've had to redo Neptunus' insulation on a few of their yachts I managed because Neptunus being in Canada used only 1/2" insulation on the chilled water lines and when the yachts get to be at about the 5 year mark, the lines start condensating everywhere, a lot of them in places you can't really get to, but in the bilge so the dripping isn't damaging anything, just losing cooling efficiency.

    Of all the yachts I managed with chillers and under 75', I've had to periodically add water to the chilled water loop on ALL of them, including a yacht thats a 2013 that I manage right now and a 2015 that I run North and South.
  19. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Do you bother to check and see where the leak is before adding coolant to the systems?
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Why would there be more leaks in a chilled water system than in a split with multiple connections ? It s like saying its normal to have leaks in the fresh water plumbing isn't it