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2001 Grand Alaskan sea trial vibration issue..thoughts?

Discussion in 'Alaskan Yacht' started by Adopo, Jan 29, 2022.

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  1. Adopo

    Adopo Member

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    So we finally sea trialed with the surveyor the boat we have under contract. I really like this boat, and most traditional boats. My wife and friends call them the "Old Man and the Sea" Boats. The boat is well above average above the floors, but the bilge and engine room could use some work. But there were two things that I have troubled by.

    1-There is a noticeable vibration at higher loads. So much so the flybridge Stidd chairs looked like those cheap vibrating chairs from the 70s you put a quarter in. This is really noticeable at full load with was about 18 knots. We ran it in the river, but later in deeper water where it was less noticeable, but still there. There was some discussion that it could be caused by swallower water, otherwise known as Squat Effect or Leonardo's Law, ergo the deeper water run to see if it would go away.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_effect

    2-It is loud, so loud that you could not enjoy the back deck under cruise. Loud is not always bad. Top Fuel be it on the water or strip, Formula One from the Schumacher days, or the Rotary Mazda Prototypes back in the day that made your ears bleed. But not so much with the wife and friends on the back deck at cruise. I get it, I know there are boats with underwater exhaust, pods, etc, and these are old school 3196s. All we needed were side launch torpedos and 20 more knots to be a PT Boat. But it was cool in a way, but could get old as well. It would be nice to find a way to quite it down some. I think the exhaust from the manifolds back or risers will need replacing, maybe something could be done then. I knew it would be loud when I noted the mufflers looked like the Cherry Bombs we ran back in the day. I hope there is a way to quieten it, but according to some of the old articles, maybe not?

    What could be causing the vibration? I know about the typical thing. Although I have not seen the survey, our surveyor thinks the cutlass bearings are good, no noticeable prop issues, no motor mount issues. I did notice one rudder for some reason has a slight bend. The shafts and props where replaced in 18 I believe. The engines were rebuilt less the bottom end last year and have 240 hours on them since.

    I have read, googled as far as I can go on vibration issues. Below is an email I sent to the surveyor today as a reference to this discussion:


    Thank you for conducting the survey on Queen B, and it was a pleasure to meet you in this regard.

    I have been "google" researching the vibration issue and of course have run across what you are considering or perhaps have ruled out. I look forward to you steering me in the right direction on this and I hope you will accept my apology if you find any of this offensive, but you don't strike me as that type.

    Looking at the obvious, it only does it while running so it is either mechanical or as I think you or someone said said just a characteristic of the boat involving fluid dynamics. It also is very loud so I think someone even mentioned a resonating frequency could even cause this?

    Let's also assume that if we ran it at those particular RMPs, there is no doubt it would be bad for the boat: fiberglass and gelcoat, but also electrical and finally the human factor of fatigue. I do realize of course the sellers and brokers could very well say, "Don't worry, you'll never run it at that rpm or speed." But of course we will on occasion clear the engines, outrun weather, or meet a schedule. It will also come up in any resale and who knows how that would be presented. I do know it would never be presented in a good light.

    I assume your survey will include this vibration in your report, and I assume you will note the rpm settings where this was particularly noticeable. It did seem to be less in deeper water, but of course was still there, so the issue was not absolved by this change alone.

    So let me ask the following: Google and the forums say it can be engine alignment, shaft alignment, bent or worn shaft, worn cuttles bearings, worn rudder stuffing boxes, out of balance or bent props, or motor mounts. Were you able to completely rule out all of those items?

    Is it possible, since all was changed but the lower parts of the diesel that something is out of balance on the engine that the eye cannot detect like a crank? I know you looked at it and put your hand on it. Were you in the engine room when this was occuring? I think you were. I'm sure this was not the cause but I am trying to find out what was causing this. Consider this is a stupid question as I am totally ignorant on this and not an expert as you are.

    I noted this in the brokers description:



    • STAINLESS STEEL 2.5” PROPELLER SHAFTS (NEW 2018) WITH 4 BLADE NIBRAL 34” X 27” PROPS (DYNAMICALLY BALANCED 2021)
    • SPARE PROPELLER SET IN AFT LAZARETTE IN TEAK CRATES
    • DRIPLESS SHAFT SEALS WITH SPARE SEALS INSTALLED (NEW 2018)
    • LINE CUTTERS ON PROPELLER SHAFTS. (NEW 2018)

    I took the liberty to go three houses over and speak to the owner of the 63 Outer Reef cockpit motoryacht once we were back at the dock, as I have been considering one in Oxnard, CA. They only made three of these, so it was amazing to see this as I have been wanting to see the layout. I told him about the vibration on the flybridge and this is what he told me. He had the same issue, he kept replacing the cutless bearings. Then they discovered that the line cutters were cutting off flow from them, and he had them removed. He never had an issue since. I noted in the broker description that Queen B has line cutters.

    If it is none of the above mechanical and just the characteristics of this boat, someone in the past should be able to verify this, such as the former owner, surveyor or Gary Oviatt with whom I have been able to contact but not really speak with at this time.

    As for the exhaust, my god was that loud. I know one of the joys of having a boat like this is sitting on the back deck while you enjoy the cruise. That would not be possible without damaging your ears further. We already are experiencing this as we age.

    I know the engine room needs work including the following:

    1-Replace the entire exhaust system. When this is done, do they make any type of muffler or would that restrict the diesels too much, reducing their life? Underwater exhaust would be best, but that has its own risk from what I have been told and would be even more expensive if it could even be done. I remember the old cruisers back in the day even mounted something at the end of the exhaust off the stern to push it under water.

    2-Change all hoses that were not changed when the engine work was done. Did you ask to see the records and service history? If not, can you go back to review these? I am, however , assuming you did? I was amazed at the neet filing and amount of records Charlie has under the pilot house settee.

    3-Tydy up the wiring (I had previously noted loose wiring that had been added, disconnected, etc over the life of the boat that could be run better or at least made much neater.

    4-The tops of the fuel tanks looked like they were never cleaned, wiped, and had miscellaneous items that did not belong there. Could you tell by looking at the tops that they were iron, or was that also enclosed? I do not recall.

    5-Clean and paint the bilge and all surrounding areas.

    6-It is time for bottom paint and zincs.

    7-The rudder is bent. I assume there is no way something this insignifiant could cause this vibration. I know in the brokers description you can find here, it says the shafts were replaced. Why?

    What I will do is talk to the former owner, and I might try to call the previous surveyor, or perhaps you should do this as they should regard you as a peer and therefore answer your question on the vibration out of professional courtesy? My question is did they note a moderate to what I would call severe vibration at the higher RPMs?

    Thank you for your professional service regarding this matter. You come highly recommended, and I look forward to fully reviewing your final report.

    Best Regards,



    I know that was long winded, but any prior experience or advice would be appreciated. What I don't want to do is purchase this boat and spend thousands, maybe tens of thousands chasing a problem that cannot be solved. I am guessing most yards will want to start replacing things, like cutlass bearings and go from there. At least that is my past experience. I like this boat, these are hard to find in this condition, but I don't intend to make an avoidable mistake.

    Thanks forum....



    View attachment 95300 IMG_0350.jpg IMG_0345.jpg IMG_0336.jpg IMG_0340.jpg
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Something is fishy. Why were the shafts and wheels replaced ? Why is that rudder bent ? A “rebuilt less the bottom end” is a half ass job...

    Vibrations can be expensive to chase down

    water depth shouldn’t be the problem unless less than 9’ and it would only cause a vibration because of cavitation while popping on plane especially if the skipper was heavy handed. I’ve gotten boats that size on plane in 8’ to 9’, gently, with no problem.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    That's a lot of unsupported shaft.
    LAM likes this.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Following up on Pascal's post, ask the previous owner where and when he ran it aground. This vibration is something they've probably already been chasing but haven't solved yet. And I get so tired of these supposed rebuilds followed by "except". Did it reach rated RPM at WOT? I doubt it.

    Vibration can be fixed for a price, but likely they've already tried so price is increasing to do so.

    Noise is challenging. Noise is also a reason I'm not a CAT fan and would be hesitant to buy even a Hatteras as great as they are. Did the surveyor record decibel levels? I once measured 96 decibels on a GT 60. Even our Riva's don't exceed 80 at WOT. I prefer 50's and 60's but can live with 70's. I can't imagine enjoying cruising long term with sound in the 80's. I don't like to yell or others yelling but then that's required to talk.

    You fell in love with a look. Don't let that lead you astray.
  5. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    Your motor might be sliding ever so slightly fore and aft on the engine stringers causing mis alignment. Had this problem on 73 ft kong and Halverson. Didn't see it until hard shifting into reverse while looking at motors. Chased tail for awhile. Boat has ghosts in my opinion. Grands weren't well built to start. I'd look for an outer reef first.
    Capt Ralph likes this.
  6. Adopo

    Adopo Member

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    Thanks guys for the input, that's why I like this forum. One would think with the bent rudder it did run aground or it sat on something somewhere sometime in its past. As for the shaft I agree that's a lot of unsupported shaft but then again I am not an engineer.

    He did stop and while he was in the engine room shift forward and reverse then advance the throttle to check the beds and mounts.

    I hope he did register the decibels as it would be interesting to know just how loud it is.

    Do you know if they make any kind of underwater exhaust that is a bolt on? I think I recall something in the past, but if it was possible I assume a simple google search would have shown it.

    As for the build quality I have read that in a couple of forms and postings on the internet, and was told it depended on the yard. I have been told this one was built in the same yard as Outer Reef, but of course, it is not an Outer Reef.

    I know there original owner went over to inspect it and followed his build closely since I tracked him down and spoke with him about it. I do like that he was a long term owner and used and maintained the boat, keeping it in heated storage for 8 months out of the year in Syracuse but still using it enough to accumulate 2600 hours. When it was purchased the original owner agreed to have the work done on the engines, and that the new owner have put 240 hours on it since this work. Here is the write up from Yachtworld.

    Owners Note:

    When purchasing this vessel in early 2021 we retained the services of a Caterpillar factory trained and certified technician. The engines ran great but a check of the factory records revealed that when the engines were new a factory recall to upgrade the after coolers was missed by the owner. A careful examination revealed minor pitting. As a result, the seller agreed to a COMPLETE Caterpillar rebuild of both engines. All work was done by our Caterpillar certified technician using ALL Caterpillar parts.


    Work included:

    • New upgraded aftercooler assemblies
    • New factory built complete head assemblies (head, valves etc)
    • New factory built complete cylinder assemblies (sleeves, pistons, rods etc)
    In addition, while the engines were disassembled we decided to also:

    • Replace all injectors with new Caterpillar injectors
    • Have all heat exchangers removed, cleaned and reinstalled
    • Have both raw water pumps rebuilt
    • Replace hoses and belts
    The bottom line: With the exception of the after coolers, none of this work was actually required. However, new owners going forward will have peace of mind knowing that both engines are as close to factory fresh as possible. It's reasonable to expect many years of reliable service.

    https://www.**************/yacht/2001-grand-alaskan-raised-pilothouse-8156584/

    As for Outer Reef we've been looking at them for some time and really like them. They are on the radar.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  7. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Not to my knowledge, but even if there were any, it's not something I would want to have in my boat.
    Exhaust systems are critical in any boat, and they must be properly designed from the ground up.
    No place for Mickey Mouse solutions, in this department.

    What you were told is correct.
    Tania Yacht Co. Ltd in Kaohsiung was the actual builder of GAs, and now builds ORs.
    New moulds are tooling are expensive - why not use some existing ones, when you can...? ;)
  8. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    I spent a week in that yard supervising our OR build. They do a good job and built a good boat for us. The quality and over sight depends alot on the yards customer( OR , GA). Knowing the OR people very well, I would get another one without question. Yes there are more expensive yachts to buy and you can spec most anything on OR boats to fit your budget and needs. They stood behind our boat and other customers as well. Resale was strong.
    Every boat in the yards production gets a NA project manager to oversee the build. We never saw any "can't see it from my house" quality cover ups on ours or the other boats under construction. OR has knowledgeable reps there constantly.
    Our boat had a problem with the finish on the cherry veneer that caused it to form a whitish haze. Ended up being a problem with the clear finish from manufacturer of the sealer. The yard sent over 4 men and reveneered the entire boat. Workmanship was great, happy customer. I know the grand Alaskan story and won't elaborate here but I won't buy one.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    In which year was your boat built, if you don't mind me asking?
  10. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    07 or 08 can't remember exactly. 73 ft c18 cats
  11. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I would have thought that this well known "milking" problem, as it was called, had already been sorted by then.
    How long did it take for it to appear, after the new boat launch? Not more than a couple of years, I suppose?
  12. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    Yes couple of years. We hadn't heard of any issues prior to our problems.
    It appears others builders had same issues ??
  13. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yup, plenty of them, also among the European ones, but mostly in the period between the late 90s and the mid noughties.
    In fact, it wasn't triggered by a peculiarity of just one clear finish manufacturer as you were told, but rather by the widespread adoption of a (by then) new coating system based on a different chemistry, that granted a very good appearance AND a shorter/less expensive production process.
    But its now notorious drawbacks started surfacing only after a few years, and since in that timeframe the production numbers were very strong, there are still around plenty of boats affected to some degree (usually higher on gloss, compared to matte finishing).
  14. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    Wish I had know that back then! Thx for info. Are all the current industry finishes good now?
  15. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    STAINLESS STEEL 2.5” PROPELLER SHAFTS (NEW 2018) WITH 4 BLADE NIBRAL 34” X 27” PROPS (DYNAMICALLY BALANCED 2021) that the the bend rudder is odd. IF shafts new in 2018 why no balance the props then? Why balance them in 2021. The current owner hit something. This sounds very expensive and I would be out.
  16. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Or, since the shaft & propeller replacements, from 2018 to 2021 fought with this vibration problem, then balanced the wheels that did not help.
    Reads like a problem boat.
    I like the 3196. But not a high value engines these days. I would take them if I had to.
    You don't have to.
    I recommend you walk on.
  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Some people believe in pulling and balancing wheels every couple of years, maybe that was the case

    2 1/2” shaft seem a bit light for these engines and boats and as Ralph said that seem to be a long unsupported section. Hopefully someone calculated the safety factor and used AQ22HS...

    Top speed is advertised as 17.5kts barely on plane. 660hp straight 6s aren’t enough for this boat. It’s going to struggle staying on plane at 75% load...

    This is basically a trawler which is able to get out of its own way once in a while. So as long as you don’t mind the 10.5 kts cruise, it will be fine and the vibration is probably not worth chasing.
    Kafue likes this.
  18. Adopo

    Adopo Member

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    The Vibration and noise are defiantly an issue. The ordinal owner who had it built and visited the yard several times while under construction sure kept it for a long time. I do like the long term storage he had but still used it. I need to find out again his reasons for replacing he shafts and props. Seems I recall him saying something about they had some wear. Like you, I look at evidence, like the bent rudder and vibration. And who knows, maybe the couple that own it now never took it up on plane. But walking is an option that's for sure. I know, don't fall in love with any boat, and really the most important part is below the cabin if you plan to use it for more than just a condo.
    Capt Ralph likes this.
  19. Adopo

    Adopo Member

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    Yes about the planning it was bow high positon. I have made contact with a broker who work for Oviatt and sold these new, a delightful lady. She has been kind enough to answer my questions about the build, vibrations, and noise. She said the vibration defiantly is not a characteristic of this boat (someone said it could be so I asked her-of course I did not think so) and she also said it should not be as loud as I described. She was wondering as well about all of the things discussed, cutlass bearing, props, motor mounts, etc. I guess I will wait for my surveyors report. Has anyone used Noel Miley https://floridamarinesurveyors.us?

    The broker who was with Oviatt told me a funny story and it relates to the fact that these engines are interesting choices for what is a more displacement than semi displacement boat. She said that Art Defever was on board during a sea trial where they were built and they were going through the paces. When the put it under full load and hit 18 knots she looked at Art and said, "Art I bet you didn't expect that did you?" Art said, "No, but it sure is fun!" It rode high bow at that speed, and that's where the worse vibration occurred. At the regular cruising speed it was not as noticeable.
  20. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

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    "At the regular cruising speed it was not as noticeable."

    Not noticeable would be perhaps a better sign. Not as noticeable...

    Cool that you got a hold of the original dealer broker and that she has some knowledge of what was supposed to be the ride and noise levels. Good bit of due diligence there.