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Publishing of original concept designs?

Discussion in 'Yacht Designers Discussion' started by BjornS, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Is there an echo here or are you trying to make some point?

    Or are you just bored and lacking a good grasp of language?

    Had I known you would be so upset I would have warned you that I was going to use the intransitive verb.

    Geesh man, get a life.
  2. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    OK guys ... or guys and gals ... be careful with the wordings. Stick to the topic and refrain from any personal mudslinging. Remember - your membership is at stake ... :)

    Stick to the topic!

    Bjorn
  3. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Marmot

    Those words often seem true, don't they. More often (in the one vs many scenario), specially in today's environment perhaps, because the artist(s) don't know they have been copied, or they don't have the resources to do anything about it, or they don't have the will to go forward with any counter action.

    But I strongly believe it is still the individual's responsibility to do one's best to create original or unique design/detail/lines/concepts even if based on "inspiration" from another's original work. It is not OK to purposefully copy a detail or a whole from another, but rather "steal" the idea(s) and make something new and fresh from the idea. :cool:

    Of course - some design similies may just be accidental 'copies' since often ideas may be the influences of current/past times or fashions. But sometimes individuals seem to lack the pure effort it takes to create unique works by instead lazily and openly stealing someone elses elements - like in the case of AMG vs "down-under". :eek:

    Designing is not just fun ... it is also a serious moral and legal responsibility. However, there are always those few unscrupulous ones who give no thought about rights and intellectual property at all. :mad:

    Bjorn
  4. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I have had several builders from a certain Far East country asking me for proposals in the past. I have supplied all of them with the same design since I suspected they might steal it. I have not heard from any of them and look forward to see two or three clones coming out at the same time...

    That would be worth a laugh, wouldn´t it...:D
  5. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Blarp

    I have always thought direct targeting/marketing would be the way to go. I have already tried it by approaching builders and a few designers at trade shows. The builders general consensus were that they have very little clout over who the client/owner will pick as a designer, but they are happy to keep your name on file. Designers are - well - your business competition. :) And it may also be that owners go with whomever is fashionable or popular at the time, or they get referrals from other owners.

    My personal beef is how to find the right door(s) and direct connection(s) to potential owners without having to publish or rely only on the www. In the end - the owners are the only ones making the decisions whether they like your work or not, and they need to see your work first hand to make those decisions.

    Owners may also struggle to find new and potential great talent and concepts that have not been actively published in print or on the www.

    Now --- YOU --- the independent designers --- lurking ;) and reading this thread, who may have been in this situation before, and who already have made your first contact "catching" an owner and making 'that' deal for a superyacht or similar --- do you have a story or two to relay to this community about your experiences?????

    Bjorn
  6. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Well, like music or a recipe, until someone experiences the product it doesn't exist and isn't worth anything so you have to put it out there and take the risk.

    Remember the old saying, form follows function? As much as modern yacht design stretches the connection, it remains true. All boats have a bow and a stern or three, need lights in certain places and a few windows.

    While you might be able to copyright the renderings you publish, unless someone uses that specific graphic without making substantial changes you really can't claim your idea was stolen, can you?

    How many parents of small children felt they had the right to sue Jackson Pollack for stealing the idea to throw paint on a wall or the floor? A computer rendering of a visionary yacht is a long way from cutting metal and until a unique expression of the designer's art becomes a trademark ala the grill on a Rolls, it's just another bit of computer graphics.
  7. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Lars ...... you are a brave northern soul for "trusting" your work to the far east connection. I see you are not holding your breath over it, but still. I have friends from and in that region, and I am constantly being told by them -- unless you look and speak local, they will not easily do business with you --- if at all. Period. Many outsiders find local representatives to be the front person to even be able to "open" the door.

    Also, in the area you are referring to, there is enormous distrust over 'Guai Lo' = people like you and me. And knowing what regard there is over copyrights and related protection over there, I must say again - you are a seriously brave man. :D

    Bjorn
  8. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Bjorn, I have been working with the far east for many years, designing other stuff, and earned a lot of respect. But of course there are "cousins" making copies of all that is selling, so you have to move fast and have the advantage of getting a better price before the copies are out...

    When it comes to copying yacht designs, I wouldn´t bank on Marmot´s advice...;)
  9. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    Wouldn't a few blatant copies just end up being money in the bank for you?

    Sure, the legal proceedings could take years... :rolleyes:
  10. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I don´t care in this case, I just wish to see their faces when launching the same design unaware of each other. If it happened.
  11. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I don't recall offering any advice in this area.

    What are you guys calling a "design?" Have you delivered a full set of engineering drawings and plans to someone or made them publically available somewhere they might be stolen?

    Like I said before, a computer rendering of a boat is just that, it is a long way from a design, it is just a drawing, a piece of graphic artwork. Put a copyright mark on it and it's yours.

    If somebody builds a boat without input from you, it seems to me they developed or paid for the construction drawings, got the plan approvals with their name on them and built the hardware. Unless they used your rendering to sell the concept and you can prove it, you don't have much to claim.
  12. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Marmot

    True. But heart stopping dangerous - business wise - to put it out there before it has been made. Think Apple - never published or releasing anything until the product is shipping or has been protected in some form. Other companies let the product out of the bag sometimes months upon months in advance, and often get ripped off before they get to launch their own.

    Yes - form certainly follows function - a logical train of thought. However, there are unlimited ways an artist can make the design unique, yet still be 100% functional. One may think there are only a finite number of ways to make a musical piece with only an octave available (8 notes from C to C, and 5 sharps), but look at the amazing, great and seemingly endless variety of original musical content that has been created over the centuries. Modern yacht design can certainly be done in more different ways than what one finds floating inside any marina today, and the designers should and must be more creative with the ways form meets function. Not everything has to look a certain way just because it is going to float on water or sail through a wave. If not the visionaries and artists - no paper clips, no Hubble space telescope, no Bugatti Veyron, and no 21st century computer chips (although the latter probably came from the pencil necked 'greys').

    Agree ... to a certain extent. I think it is still the designer's ethical and moral role to not just tweak someone elses work and thereby just barely getting away with it in a potential court of law, but rather make it unique even when basing it on another's work. IMHO.

    Love the Pollack comparison. I think he never left his childhood though. Interesting work. But what a slap in the face to the established fine art world it was at the time. Like the urinal installations of others.

    Yes, one can not protect the wheel on the bridge, that a ship has propellers, or that the hull is white. But one can certainly protect elements or looks that as parts or as a whole contribute to a products total appearance, function or both. It is a somewhat grey area legally speaking because of weak copyright and intellectual laws world wide, but hopefully that changes to the designers benefits sooner than later. Otherwise - who would want to make music or art anymore if one can not get the necessary protection to keep making unique 'things'? Legal protection, but also a collective global indoctrination that theft and direct copying is not acceptable in any form.

    I know, I know ... the place I live is called Utopia ... :D

    Bjorn
  13. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    OK, now may I repeat myself; When it comes to copying yacht designs, I wouldn´t bank on Marmot´s advice...;)
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    OK, now I repeat myself. A computer rendering of a pretty boat on the water is not a vessel design. It is a nice piece of computer graphics, it is artwork. That graphic is all you have that can be claimed and copyrighted.

    If someone sees that and designs then builds hardware that resembles it, that doesn't make it yours to claim.
  15. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Marmot, I happen to know how this works in all civilized countries, but outside them you are probably right.
  16. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Your copyright extends to any copy or potentially likeness of said design - on paper or otherwise - in the civilized world. If "pretty" art and graphics on paper or digital files can not be protected - how do you think patents are filed?

    Nonsense. But one has to show that the idea was yours to begin with. And that goes both ways.

    Bjorn
  17. Blarp

    Blarp New Member

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    Hi Bjorn.
    My experience was withn a design team. I apporached a company because I wanted to work in the design office with them.
    Perhaps what you are talking about is for larger one-off projects where you are the designer and would be contracted to see a project through at a yard, on behalf of a client.
    This is a much more specific field, and a position that only a tiny fraction of designers achieve. Of course you would need the backup of many engineers and other designers, so the project would quicly change from 'your' design to a collective 'our' design as you would be part of a team, claiming joint reponsibility and credit in different areas.

    Which leads on to Marmots points about the 'deisgn' being a more than a profile drawing of a boat. Obviously he is right that an entire boat design is much more than that and you could only claim responsiblity for your input.
    Lets try to be more specific about design: are we talking about interior or exterior styling, packaging, engineering, interior materials selection, etc?
    I would class most work posted on YF as 'exterior styling' with the occasional 'packaging' thrown in to the more realistic and educated works. Rarely do we see engineering drawings or interiors, but why?
    Maybe exterior styling is the easiest way for people to claim the title of a designer

    I dont think anyone could design all aspects of a large modern boat on their own from start to finish.

    I see design as more of a collective evolution.
    We are all adding to the development of modern boats as we propose ideas that are interchanged globally. Some vessels make great leaps in design that are absorbed by other designs and so it goes on.
    So none of us can lay claim to any design in its entirety because we must all give a part of the credit to the guy that put the pointy end at the front eons ago (which we copied), and so on.
    So dont fret and get precious about design. If someone copies your work, it means you have added your bit to the collective. That is something to be proud of.

    :)
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Yes, you got my point exactly.


    This is precisely what I meant. They are lovely examples of computer graphics but in my opinion they are far from being a "design" that could be construed as having any beyond its intrinsic value.


    Yes, and as I wrote, until a designer has established a style that is recognized, and valued as his "trademark," his sketches published on internet yacht sites can be described as equivalent to sidewalk painting.

    That's it, and what I meant by put the material out and hope someone likes it enough to offer a commission. Until the time a design team turns a concept sketch into approved drawings there is nothing to "steal" other than a graphic illustration.
  19. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    My kind of guy. You just walked in and got the job for the asking. Nice.

    You are correct that my approach would be more in the direction of larger one-offs and direct interaction with the client. It fits better in my end of the world.

    Yes, it is all about the team effort. The lead designer or concept artist usually gets the public credit. Which is fair. And the profile of a yacht may be the most important feature. The client is often likely to go for a design because of a profile that is appealing. That would of course depend a little on the function and purpose of the vessel, but like with so many products made - it is most often the profile, the exterior "gloss", and the pride factor of exterior styling of most products that sells.

    Regarding evolution of design - I briefly touched upon the issue in post #9 (with AMG). The intention with this thread is to try to clarify the issue of posting original concepts on the web or not, but the issues get a little side tracked now and then. But it is your chicken and egg scenario that comes into play. Issues regarding copyrights, what is original design or not, and the issues that are ostensibly connected with designers and unique art. I am not trying to take any high road, but just trying to find fair answers and have a good conversation in the process.

    That we all contribute to the collective is fine and good. However, I assume that you - like me - don't physically live in such a dull grey industrial and political regime where no individual gets diligent support and due credit in the form of proper mention and serious remuneration for being such a bright head in the ocean of "grey" designer heads. Teamwork and co-operation has to be present at all times, but credit needs to go where it should go when design leaders step forth with ideas and direction. And if you yourself have created original art, don't you ever give up on your right to claim your art to be yours and yours only, and that you are proud of it as well. :)

    Bjorn
  20. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Marmot

    So .. are you saying that a one-off piece of art has no copyright protection? Or that perhaps one has to go into serial production or create the same looks for everything to receive legal protection? I hope that is not your reasoning, because it would not hold any water in a legal dispute.

    BTW ... concept sketches are as good as gold in the court of law. And stealing is stealing - whatever the form of the original presentation. Courtcases have been won because of designs that was jotted down on a piece of napkin in a bar.

    Bjorn