Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail (and power)

cranky · Feb 24, 2007

Brian

I have been reading through your stuff. Interesting, nearly put me to sleep with all those words but the ideas were there.

Fishing under sail nothing new about that people have been successfully fishing under sail for thousands of years. Just they didn't turn it into a professional sport. And I can only applaud you on having the balls to design a vessel to do just that.

But I have to ask why the wierd rig that will undoubtedly at some point in time break. I can see at a glance at least 3 places where the loads must be incredable to keep the thing up while under sail. To sail this rig in 15 to 20 in any direction the loading on the mast base and back stays must be off the planet. I can only imagine that if the rig stayed together then the hulls and or cross beams must bend and twist like crazy. Even on a conventional rig this can be a major issue.

Now If I were to be designing a vessel to carry out this task I would be looking at the "freedom 40" as my starting point, a medium displacment mono hull with a free standing ketch rig and wishbone booms fitted with lazy jacks. Or maybe take it to trimaran with a similar rig, I do not belive that you could make it structurely sound on a cat.

Looking forward to the replies.

brian eiland · Feb 24, 2007

cranky said:

I have been reading through your stuff. Interesting, nearly put me to sleep with all those words but the ideas were there.
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Sorry about that, I'm not a particularly good writer, I realize that

cranky said:

Fishing under sail nothing new about that people have been successfully fishing under sail for thousands of years. And I can only applaud you on having the balls to design a vessel to do just that.
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Actually I was working on a Motor/Sailer design back in '89,'90 when Lock Crowther was begining work on the TaraVana design. That prompted me to consider a little more engine power and that older mainsail-less rig design of mine.

The key word was NO Mainsail. As I point out on my website, "I'm well aware that once a large gamefish is hooked, the vessel must get rid of all sail quickly, with minimum effort, and get under power."

cranky said:

But I have to ask why the wierd rig that will undoubtedly at some point in time break. I can see at a glance at least 3 places where the loads must be incredable to keep the thing up while under sail. To sail this rig in 15 to 20 in any direction the loading on the mast base and back stays must be off the planet. I can only imagine that if the rig stayed together then the hulls and or cross beams must bend and twist like crazy. Even on a conventional rig this can be a major issue.
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Can't get into defending the rig design at this time, nor on this forum. If you care to look at the aerodynamics of the situation and some of the loading discussions I can point you to numerous discussions on another forum

cranky said:

Now If I were to be designing a vessel to carry out this task I would be looking at the "freedom 40" as my starting point, a medium displacment mono hull with a free standing ketch rig and wishbone booms fitted with lazy jacks. Or maybe take it to trimaran with a similar rig, I do not belive that you could make it structurely sound on a cat.
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Interesting that you bring this 'free standing' subject up right now. Wait a few weeks and I will surprise you with a new design I'm working on right now I promise you will find it very interesting.

In the meantime did you notice this free-standing ketch referenced above in posting #32. Opps,the link was wrong, here is new one, http://www.hybridfishingboat.org

cranky · Feb 24, 2007

Look forward to seeing your new drawings

brian eiland · Mar 23, 2007

DynaRig Motorsailer

cranky said:

Look forward to seeing your new drawings
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Hello Cranky. I assume you may have seen my new DynaRig Motorsailer by now??
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/6590-motor-sailing-vessels-motorsailer.html

brian eiland · Dec 19, 2007

Fishing Under Sail (Alternatives)

Well here's a new variation

These guys in Hawaii are fishing under a new 'form of sail'....kite sails to be more specific.
http://kiteforsail.com/index.htm

(I thought I might add this posting to this subject thread as it originally proposed this fishing under sail subject, but in reality this kite sail subject probably best fits under this "New Age Kite-Assisted Power Yacht" subject.)

brian eiland · Jan 15, 2008

Atwarthships Fishing Deck

Been talking with a gentleman who really likes sportfishing, and who really likes the 'stayless rig' (dynarig) concept, that further eliminates interference with any extra rigging lines.

But he also desires a relatively 'one level fishing deck' across the beam of the vessel. So here is a rough sketch of a modification to the 'elevating' fishing chair deck on the dynarig cat

brian eiland · May 30, 2008

Cat Fishing

This gentleman wants to go 'Cat Fishing'. http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/9207-cat-fishing.html?posted=1#post60026

I guess he missed seeing this subject thread, so I revitalized it

brian eiland · Jul 22, 2008

Returning to Sail Power

Brian,

"Cornish fishermen are rigging their boats for sails, as we report today, is one of the few (but possibly the first of many) positive results to arise from the rocketing price of fuel."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../20/dl2003.xml

Perry
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What was that Chinese quote, "May you live in interesting times" ?

brian eiland · Jul 24, 2008

Fishing Under Sail

...just saw this news from Sail-World.com, and being that it relates to 'supplemental wind power' I felt it belonged in this other subject thread

Advance to the Past: Fishermen Start to use Sails

SailMore · Dec 29, 2008

brian eiland said:

Been talking with a gentleman who really likes sportfishing, and who really likes the 'stayless rig' (dynarig) concept, that further eliminates interference with any extra rigging lines.

But he also desires a relatively 'one level fishing deck' across the beam of the vessel. So here is a rough sketch of a modification to the 'elevating' fishing chair deck on the dynarig cat

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If that boat is motor powered, then how would they catch fish from the back? Wouldn't the disruption of sound and waves right there keep any fish from even approaching that portion of the boat?

brian eiland · Jul 3, 2009

Going Where the Fish Are

Looking thru the latest June issue of Boat International USA, I found this little dissertation on finding gamefish a bit further offshore than normally considered (attached a scan of "Going Where the Fish Are").

This issue also contained a nice little section on gamefishing designs, including some history and some new designs. I was a bit disappointed to see most of the new designs basically being 'reruns' of the same old theme that's existed for the past 40 years or so...just bigger and more horsepower. Where is some real innovation?

brian eiland · Jul 7, 2010

Noise and Fishing

Originally Posted by nas130 said:

Trolling with sails alone?
Generally diesels raise fish!!!
Mabye the waters your heading to are better than the ones I have fished.
Nick
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Just looking thru the forum and ran across a few comments about noise and fishing:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ge...sing-fish.html
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Originally Posted by Cranky said:

Can't say I am an expert on this but several years ago I got into this discussion with an older guy who had several about "60 or so" I believe world records over the years. his belief was the quieter and less turbulant that the vessel was the better.
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Originally Posted by Loren Schweizer said:

I'm with cranky.
There once was a 42 sportfisherman built by a renowned manufacturer. All the other 42s ever built caught fish except this one.
The mystery was solved when an astute mechanic found that one of the prop shafts was so poorly aligned with the shaft log, it left bronze "sawdust" in the bilge from the wear and scraping between the two-- must have made some kind of racket underwater.

With proper clearance between the two-- and, presumably, no more noise-- the boat entered a tournament and caught fish.

I was a firsthand witness to all this, BTW.
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brian eiland said:

Just looking thru the forum and ran across a few comments about noise and fishing:
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/6453-underwater-exhaust-good-bad-indifferent-raising-fish.html

....I had written on my website, "I've also heard the many claims by various captains about their individual boat's particular sound being an attraction for raising fish. I find it difficult to believe that a very loud (water is a great amplifier and transmitter of sound), foreign sound would act to attract a large predator fish seeking out their food source in the ocean's natural environment. Loud, unnatural noises have in most cases acted to disperse aquatic life."
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A subject that is always highly debated, I just happened upon this subject thread this evening.
Which Boat/Engines raises fish best?
http://www.marlinnut.com/forums/t2142/

brian eiland · Nov 28, 2010

New Zealand fishing / sailing vessel

A gentleman on another forum who knows of my efforts to promote this idea of 'fishing under sail' just brought this website to my attention tonight. looks sort of like my rig, but not quite the same.

Hope it gets built.

http://www.kansaifishing.co.nz/

brian eiland · Feb 1, 2011

Fishing Under Sail Discussion

Nice looking Monohull design

http://www.noreast.com/discussion/ViewTopic.cfm?topic_ID=141089&page=1

brian eiland · Mar 14, 2011

66' Cruising/Sailing Cat videos

66' Gunboat cat

This is not to say we would ever be as fast as the Gunboat cat, but just had to give you a feeling of what ocean sailing can be like on a 66 foot catamaran...couple of youtube presentations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6fHd0UIFJk&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdqXoIhg0dA

brian eiland · Apr 16, 2011

I was surfing thru some forum discussions for a particular sportfishing vessel [monohull even ], and I ran across this posting from a couple years ago. ...thought it was rather applicable to this new fuel cost world...

plankton said:

Hi folks,

First time post here and hope I don't put my foot in it too much - or upset too many people, but I've read all the posts here and feel the need to add some more fuel to the fire.

I've been a fisherman most of my life, both commercial and in the charter industry, and have run boats in almost all the oceans of the world. As a person who has spent many hundreds of thousands of dollars on fuel, believe me when I say it hurts to pay the fuel bill every year like some of us do. Worse still, we do so in the knowledge that we are doing the "wrong" thing too.

I became enamoured with Richard Postma's Tara Vana many years ago and always hankered to go and fish it. Whether you have an engine or not, a vessel will always raise fish for the simple fact that most apex predators are curious and will come to look at a strange object in their realm, particularly if they think it might be a whale or other large object that harbours bait. This is the essence of attraction. The capture ratio of each individual boat will then reflect how long it keeps the predator in the region and whether it triggers a bite. A vessel that creates the right "footprint" will be a good boat to fish from, and it is broadly accepted among sportfishermen that a boat with an irregular aura is less attractive than one with a smooth signature. In this respect, a motorised vessel with a deep wooden hull and a slow revving engine is held in high regard - likewise a sailing boat with no engine noise but a purposeful wake with regular hull noise and motion will also attract and hold fish.

So, the answer to whether a sailing boat will catch fish like a motorised boat is inconsequential. Indeed, to catch a fish you have to run it over, and you can do that in either type of boat. Sometimes a fish on the surface will shy away from the sound of a motor, othertimes it will not matter what boat goes where - the fish will be feeding with abandon and everyone will catch.

The arguments over hull configuration take a bit more thinking. I have owned and fished both monos and cats, and in essence my impressions today of their differences are as follows :

- if you are going from A to B and not trolling or anchoring, then a catamaran is a far superior beast in almost every respect

- if you are trolling, then a catamaran between 18 and 30 feet in length can exhibit its one vice - the head sea bang. There is no getting away from the fact that a small to medium size cat will be uncomfortable going head on into a sea at trolling speeds. Cats above these lengths can gain considerable advantage in waterline length and the height of the wingdeck above sea level, and at such sizes can become much more comfortable to fish from. Of course, hull design lends a helping hand here and there are good cats and bad cats in this size range, not all of which exhibit the other characteristics which a skipper may want from their vessel. Access to machinery for service is my main priority, and it is unfortunate that many larger catamarans do not offer this characterisitic. That's my main bug bear.

But, to get back to a motor-sailing cat..... it has been a dream of mine for several years to design and build a small trailerable boat for the weekend warriors. Something capable of getting to the grounds with a single outboard, and then fishing under sail with a computer and some servos keeping the vessel at the required speed. This will entail a sharp learning curve for most fishermen and a change in tackle and attitude. But I think it can be done, as long as they're going to accept the fact that sailing is wet work and that a rope burn or the odd bodily blow to the head or other extremity is the norm, not the exception. Indeed, it is possible that some fishermen may take to the sailing aspect so well that fishing becomes less important, and vice-versa. The main problem to be overcome in the size vessel I have in mind will be one of security in the cockpit (fishermen like their gunwales) and security overall (wind versus multi-hull). Another option might be a tri-maran with telescopic hulls like the Windrider - we'd just need to work on the deck space... .

Of course, a hydro-foil boat may well offer the speeds to get to and from the grounds in certain conditions too.......

However, it's my gut instinct that a motor-sailing cat will not be the market leader in a world dominated by cash and oil. It's a lovely thought, and I'd be one to sign up for the campaign, but it won't happen. As others here have said, those with the money to buy the right boats and the fuel for them do not have the time or the inclination to wander the oceans, sipping cocktails as the shrouds creak. The Tara Vana is a boat designed to do that, and she does it in surroundings conducive to that atmosphere, with decidedly Pacific panache. I can't see it happening in the Mid Atlantic tournament out of Cape May (for example) with 200 - 300 boats leaving port at the same time, running 60 miles to the edge, and then running home again to weigh-in. Alas. It might happen in some parts of the world where wind is common and fish are close - the Cape Verdes, for example, or the Caribbean Islands or the Bahamas, and there may well be some people who will design and use a boat for the expedition fishing scene. But........

Much more common I think will be the ascendance of catamarans in general. As designs have improved and as the blinkered sportfishing world learns yearly, there are many great variations of cat design out there, and as oil prices soar I think we will see a real boom in the long thin displacement hulls so beloved by Crowther and Tennant, as are commonly seen down in the Pacific. As people start to realise the advantages these hulls give a catamaran then I think the trend for the wide-bodied planing and semi-planing hulls so common today in the US catamaran market will slow. This is the area I think we will see most improvements in, to the stage where people will buy boats that can give a distinct edge in economy while still offering competitive mid-20 knot cruise speeds. A vessel that offers all of the regular advantages of a catamaran such as stability, space and sea-worthiness and also combines that with a cruising range in excess of 600 miles at a decent speed and a fortnightly fuel fill at her fishing destination will become king.

We're almost halfway there already. If Dick Vermeulen's 47 foot craft up in Buzzards Bay (Maine) turns out the way the numbers are crunching, then we may have the first of a new breed coming down the line. Numbers ? How about 22,800 lbs of boat floating along at 21 knots for a range of 685 miles ? Or a displacement range of over 4000 miles at 8 knots ? Top speed of 24.5 knots for over 500 miles ?

What's more remarkable is that this vessel is powered with just a pair of 160hp common-rail diesels and only has a fuel capacity of 400 gallons. If I was still a charter operator I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Just think, in some places where the edge is just a mile from port, you'd fill up once a month !

My apologies for the long post. I'm not a boat designer, but I've sure fished a lot of different vessels, and although unqualified I hope you didn't get bored.
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...couple of other interesting observations by this gentleman over here:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/future-sportfisherman-looks-like-past-21289-4.html

brian eiland · Jul 9, 2011

Retractable Platforms

Another observation by Plankton:

Your multi-hulls are extremely interesting and I think your designs are pretty much spot on. I also agree that a trimaran, though not as maneuverable as a twin-engined cat, could well do the job. Inherently, there is much to be said for three hulls as against two.

However, might I suggest that large billfish (in particular) are more commonly (and preferably) handled alongside a vessel, not athwartships across the transom. Two overriding concerns by a diligent crew who release their fish are (1) to keep the fish swimming into a flow of water thus ensuring an oxygenated supply of water, and (2) to keep the fish out of the props. When a large billfish is on the leader it can characteristically surge forwards, often in sympathy with the pull of leader. If at the back of the boat, this will often lead a fish into the props, particularly if the fish is aqua-planing with pectoral fins rigidly outstretched. Might I respectfully suggest a retractable steel-rung platform, as used on board tuna pole-boats, that can be lowered outboard alongside the stern sections of the hull in the closing stages of a battle with a fish ? It could do double duty as a boarding/dive platform and tender-berth at anchor.

brian eiland · Dec 2, 2011

I was recently looking at transom step arrangements and happened across this variation on a Leopard 47 catamaran....doable fishing arrangement.

brian eiland · Apr 29, 2013

Ketch Rigged Vessels,...Deketchification of America

I just happened across this great new word, 'Deketchification'
What a great word.

And of course what drew me to investigate was my long term interest in ketch rigged sailing vessels.

brian eiland said: ↑

....excerpt
Most innovative item on my vessel, the mast-aft sailing rig, also referred to as a ‘single-masted ketch’ ......a marriage between a cutter and a ketch without the mainsail. I have LOTS of data to support my contentions as to the aerodynamic superiority of this configuration.... But lets leave that theory out of the equation for our motorsailing application. The ketch rig is a good small-crew size rig, particularly where all three sails are roller furling!....even a novice could learn to operate this rig.....and she balances under a variety of sail deployments. Lower force centers add safety. Boats with moderate rig proportions tend to make faster overall passages because they are sailed at a higher level of capability than if they carry a lofty hi-performance rig. No big head-bashing booms, and simply wing/wing the headsails downwind. The sail rig contributes damping action to the rolling in a beam/quarter sea (no servo-fins needed), contributes to an unlimited range, and ultimately it will get you home if the engines fail. Ahhhh motorsailing!
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The PDF was a little bit too large to attach on this forum, so I'll try a JPG image:

brian eiland · Jul 15, 2013

65' Sportfish Catamaran by Paul Lindenburg

I was just doing a little search for another vessel this morning, and happened across this rig. I knew the designer Paul Lindenburg, but never realized he did this custom design.

I've only read the first page of this discussion, but the engine experiements sound interesting.

65' Power Catamaran - $175,000 - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum

Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail (and power)

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