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Re-power help

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by newbee, Feb 28, 2007.

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  1. TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    Hi, again.

    Looks like, "we" forgot to to ask NEWBEE a couple of questions...:eek:

    1. Is there any lub oil consumption ? Do You have to add oil sometimes ?
    2. Where You got information that "propulsion is at last legs" ?
    3. What are total rhrs ? Not since last overhaul, just total.

    But, ok.

    Regarding price for overhaul kit of spares. In Europe it's appx. the same for this size of engine. But labour excluded.

    Regarding crankshaft. Yes, be careful. Pay attention to K1W1 last post.
    My experience with this:
    When rhrs are lower than 30 000-40 000, normally it's NOT necessary to grind off, even to first repairing size. Again, depends on engine / oil / etc.

    So, if (after dismantling) they tell "have to grind, but better if You purchase new crankshaft, new camshaft, bla, bla, bla ...." Be careful... Ask to prove it.
    In such cases I took my micrometer and went to workshop...
    And sometimes I marked crankshaft in hidden places, luckly :D , otherwise would get some piece of xxxx instead.

    What is "dangerous" ? That You can get essentional parts, what are even worse...

    If You decide to do overhaul, ask them to measure all parts according to manufacturer / common-known specifications.

    Of course, try to get references abt workshop.

    And as K1W1 mentioned, be ready to replace some extras.

    If any further advise / help needed, please post.
    If necessary, will provide with weardown limits, etc.

    Regards,

    Andrei
  2. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    It is done on an exchange basis. I'm sending them mine but I've asked them to start the job with a unit they have on their shelf.

    Re crank yes they do crack test everything , measure and guarantee everything is done to perkins sepcs. If it fails it is swapped out.

    will do.

    Yes I think my mechanic is giving me the straight skinny. I was referred to him from an experienced boat builder friend so I trust his advice is objective.

    I talked to the owner at TAD and he walked me through the list of what is, and what is not, included and what the add ons would cost if necessary. He offered to send me digital photos to substantiate any recommended replacements. He seemed like a straight shooter.

    Thanks and will do.
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Tri Star,

    I was neither testing nor teasing you.

    I was simply after someone else's views/experiences on what the advantages are of Counter Rotating Engines.

    I was taught that C.R Engines are actually more efficient by a marginal percentage when the input shaft of the gear box turns opposite to the output shaft. I don't know if this is a completely accurate statement or not but I have been on quite a few boats that were fitted with a pair of inboard turning engines and the shafts turned outboard when going ahead.

    Counter Rotation is only really required these days when using a CPP Setup.

    Not all the manufacturers who used to do them still offer them. 2 Yrs ago I worked on a deal for a pair of Cat 3516 B Series 2 Engines for a client (One is my Avtar) and found that these engines are not offered as C.R Engines any more.

    With the Cats I have seen as C.R. Engines I have not seen any that were specifically arranged to have the Oil Fillers etc on a particular side as most of them were Vee configuration and the Oil filler etc was in the middle or in one of the Valve Covers. The pumps on the C.R Engines were different to the other one. I have seen the dip sticks and gauge panels facing each other , I have this on the current Std Rotation engines today

    The only engines I remember off the top of my head being available "handed" were the Detroits 6-71's. I can't recall if these were C.R. or not.

    I hope this has put your mind at rest and answered your questions.
  4. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    Yes. both port and starboard were consuming oil. The rim of the turbo air intake used to collect oil. The mechanic who surveyed did not dismantle turbos but said he thought it was likely more than a seal problem. I plan to replace both turbos with re-mans.

    Compression testing on starboard revealed that #1 cylinder was intermitant and blow by was obvious. When I saw it apart it was pretty obvious the head of the piston was a mess. Next time I'm out at the mechanics shop I'll take a digital photo and post it here.

    Compression testing on port was ok and no blow by. The exhaust colour was suggestive of turbo forcing oil past the valves.

    After reviewing the mechanical survey, it was me who concluded starboard needed a total re-build or replacement. I got the price of the boat reduced accordingly.

    Starboard is reported as 3,600. We don't know about port hrs before re-build in 1995 (just post 1600 hrs)

    I will watch for this. In fact my crankshaft is visible so I will record the measurements. I went over this point with my mechanic again and he clarified that mine is fine and would onlly require a polish.

    With respect to extra parts. I'm pretty sure my alternator and starter are in good shape. They were just installed last year by the prior owner.

    The port re-man was installed by owners prior to the one I purchsed from so some stuff i can only glean from the log. For example, when they instaled the re-man port engine in Apr 1995 there is another entry "Instal old injector pump $2,019.00" How can I find out if a re-built injector pum makes sense now without spending alot of $$ to dismantle ?

    I'm thinking of what I could do to overhaul the port engine without a re-build as I don't think it is at that stage. Thoughts on this question would be most appreciated.
    My mechanic has alrady assessed and repaired the starboard side velvet drive and v-drive, so I"m assuming port drive train is probably in simillar condition. They require some bearings replaced etc but are apparently good to go at a cost of about $1K each. I'm having the port engine, velvet drive and the v-drive taken out so they can be also be assessed and repaired if necessary.

    Thanks again.
  5. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    To KIWI,

    pardon my paranoia. Obviously, you are a gentleman. With an honest interest, in getting to the truth of things.
    Although, sometimes people in these forums
    - can be a little pernickety and petty.
    Anyway...
    I'm also, curious, as you are - re: counter rotating things.
    It's not a suprise, to hear "...are more efficient by a marginal percentage...."
    However, if it's already part of the package, maybe it's worth keeping ?

    Because, we design mostly narrow boats, like cats - Inline engines, are the
    ones I tend to deal with. And people, such as Cummings - are happy to swich things, back and forth.
    To my point of view, this is a simple way to improve reliabiliy. As by putting dip sticks, gauges and so on - in opposition - with easy access.
    Then one engine will be less likely to be " forgotten".

    Where, in my view, counter rotation may have the:
    " best return on investment " is at the prop.
    As in theory, I repeat theory....speed may improve, or conversely
    directional stabiliy will increase - depending on the direction of rotation.

    With a serious accident, with the 100 mph off-shore racers, being caused by intentionaly having the props counter rotate, the " wrong way ".
    I suspect that, at 15 knots, this may be not have the same potential drama....
    And that the major manufacturerers, are not focusing as much on this, at lower hp ratings, as they used too. Except, perhaps, for people like Volvo.

    However, as indicated, if gains due to counter rotation are already in place.
    Then maintaining them may serve the project.

    Do you - or others out there - have some difinitive data.
    One way or the other on what goes on with counter rotating propellers ?

    Cheers !
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Thank you for the compliment.

    Don't get confused between Counter Rotating Engines and Counter Rotating Props.

    If you didn't have counter rotating props in a twin engine installation you would have a nightmare to handle. It would also tend to crab along as the stern was trying to walk one way all the time, the opposite rotation of two props normally negates this.

    As I said above I have sailed with C.R. Engines where the engines rotated inboard and the shafts rotated outboard. This is easy to achieve with the use of a gearbox.

    The project I am involved in now has two Standard Rotation engines, this means that one shaft will rotate when going ahead in the same direction as the engines crankshaft and the other will be opposite. During tank testing it became apparent that there was a difference in fuel consumption and performance when the shafts on the model were set to rotate inboard. I opted to have this on the vessel itself. Inboard turning wheels make for a whole new set of parameters for manoeuvring especially when up against a bulkhead.

    I am reliably informed by a colleague who has driven a number of yachts with them turning in both directions that once you get used to them going that way it is not much different. He told me on the second yacht we sailed on together that when he joined he asked the departing Captain about the direction of shaft rotation before having his first attempt at driving and was told he didn't know. It turned out that they were inboard turning with C.R Engines. The departing Captain is one of the big players in the industry today and an excellent boat handler.

    Newbee-

    If you have the engine out and don't intend to strip it at all ask your mechanic to remove the sump and a couple of Rod Bearings plus one main bearing for examination. You can get a special strip that is called Plastigage (http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Tools/plastigage.htm) that can be put between the bearing and shaft the caps tightened and it will give you the clearance. When the rods are disconnected it is also possible to push the disconnected rod all the way up the bore and look up the liner from underneath. This isn't going to show you the whole picture because the upper part will be covered by the piston but it will allow you to see any water marks or scores in the liner. If the bearing clearances are within tolerance and I think they will be if the Lube Oil pressure is good and no Liner damage is visible and there is still some good cross hatching then the engine is probably fine and dandy to go again.
  7. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    CR -High Speed Concerns

    To KIWI,

    well stated.
    I'm a great beliver in; imperical, in the field, feedback.So I appreciate the added data. Especially, re: the experienced Capt.

    Who does need to remain nameless. As obviously, his innocence of things mechanical, did not overly effect his performance in handling a vessel.
    Instinctively - compensating for any abberations in what ever boat was handed to him - no doubt.
    Proberly, his passengers were, in fact, safer with him. Than a Capt. who needs to analyze matters for too long, during an emergency situation. Before taking action.

    Re: High Speed Concerns.

    With jet drives, often there is no gearbox involved. As conveniently, the water flow, is in effect, neutral in it's rotation.
    With prop driven vessels, at displ. speed, avoiding crabing has got to be one of the major advantages of going to the trouble of CR.
    And you add support, to my presumption - that in practice, slower speed yachts will come with props rotating in either direction, to each other.
    Also, in operations, it is not even considered of note, by many people.

    Your tank tests, indicate that clockwise or anti - clockwise rotation of the props, to each other, has a measureable and useful effect.
    Also, below say 25 knots, ones options re: rotation - are somewhat to the designer's and /or engineer's descretion.

    However, a little food for thought.
    If intended speeds will exceed 40 knots......

    On a tunnel hull cat, the helmsman will sense 3 distinct zones of operation.
    Marked when planning is achieved and past 40 - when the craft will " break loose ". Attaining " flight ".
    Not so well understood, is that monohull vessels are also receiving significant lift from Surface Effect, above these elevated velocities.

    Not to get into, the wisdom of rushing about, jumping waves. Or which generic hull form is best for this......
    The important consideration is: That with all vessels, the hull's effect on directional stability is Decreasing, as the propellers effect is Increasing - as speed goes up. - And especially, when aerodynamic lift starts to exceed that, from hydrodynamic forces.

    And especialy, when the dreaded: " chine walking " sets in.
    Even, at relatively slow speed, in bad weather, a similer dynamic can occur.
    Due to wave action, or said ".....walking" - if one prop stays immersed and sinks lower - and the other is grabbing air.....
    The desire for the sunken prop to push the craft sideways to the direction of travel - as well as forward. No longer has any opposition.

    To make matters even more interesting...This torque thrust will also be doing it's best to roll the vessel. At this point, the direction of shaft rotation becomes of increasing concern.
    As: sideways thrust in one direction will increase the amplitude of the roll
    and the degee of repeated ossilations!
    Whereas: if this same thrust, is in opposition to the direction of roll, it will help to right the vessel. And also dampen the amount of - and degree, of said occilations.
    {A prize for any one, defining which is the " wrong " way for CR props to rotate on a 75 knot boat ?!}

    It's also interesting to note: that it's becoming de riguer, with the 1/4 mile hot rod set, to use twin props now.
    (With a Single Engine.) Over just one propeller. As was previous practice.
    I'm not sure which way they rotate.
    As I only watch these monsters, from far away....!

    I know this is all becoming somewhat removed from the original question.
    re: Re-building.
    However, the vessel concerned, has the wise redundancy of twin engines.
    As a lot of dockside wisedom, being stated about twin drive trains these days can run; " counter " to scientific observation.
    Perhaps, it serves, to present data gathered from various sources. To support the continued use of the vessel concerned.

    Cheers All !
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I appreciate your input Tri Star but think we have sort of hijacked the original thread subject.

    Carl, Would you like to spin this of into a separate thread and extract the C.R and associated stuff so we don't confuse YF Member Newbees original questions and answers?
  9. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    With respect to port engine.

    This is the one that was a Perkins cerified re-man by Detroit-Pacific Diesel in Kent Washington in 1995 or 1,600 hour ago.

    Besides assessing (and hopefully confirming) the long block health, what else should I focus on?

    I'm pretty sure the turbo needs a re-build/replace. I have a price from TAD of $995 for a re-built turbo so I'm inclined to do this. Does that seem to make sense.

    Given that it appears the old injector pump was re-installed in 1995 at a cost of $2,019 does that cost suggest it was re-built ? Does it makes sense to spend money dismantling to assess it's performance or is it more economical to assume it could use replacing? Once again TAD has re-built injector pumps in stock so having an extra one shipped with my re-built starboard would be pretty convenient. I'll double check the price but again I think it is also around $1,000.

    I guess my ignorant assumption here is that injector pump and turbo are key areas affecting performance.

    Both wet exhausts are brand new.

    Starboard exhaust manifold is an after market part. My mechanic thinks it looks good but it is being shipped to TAD to be assessed.

    Port exhaust manifold is original. I'm going to get TAD to provide a quote for a replacement.
  10. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    TAD seems to have reasonabvle prices indeed from what you are quoting here.

    Before stumping up for a new Inj. Pump ask your mechanic to take it off the Port engine and have it and the injectors bench tested by a Diesel shop locally.

    If the engine is out it should be no more than a couple of hours max to remove the Pump and Injectors, similar to refit. You will be up for this labour charge even if you just decide to change them out. The Pumps are master splined so it is almost impossible to get the timing wrong ( saying this there is a mark on the pump body and flat surface where it mounts. A reference of where these marks are in relation to each other should be made and the pump reinstalled as close as possible to this , a photo is the best way to record this one).
  11. TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    Hi,

    1. 1600 rhrs is almost nothing. Do minor overhaul.
    2. Turbo can be rebuilt if casing / diffusor / shaft / wheels are not damaged / corroded.
    Overhaul kits are available (seals, slide bearings).
    It takes 2-3 hrs to replace everything.
    What they offer as "rebuilt turbo for exchage" ? What parts are replaced ?
    3. Injection pump rebuilt for 2019 $. If I compare to prices in my place, then, I would assume that it was rebuilt.
    And again. What they can offer for 1000 $ rebuilt ? All plungers / bearings / pushrods renewed ?

    4. Performance can be affected by a lot of things ... everything is important.;)

    5. Don't forget cylinder heads. Ask the workshop to dismantle one or two and take measurements. Look at condition of valves / guides.

    6. Again, I remind, that You face situation "low rhrs, but overhaul long time ago". I would suggest follow scenario: dismantle 1 cyliner unit - check/measure - replace parts if necessary. If some replacements were necessary - overhaul next cylinder. (but, all piston rings have to be replaced for sure).

    rgds,

    Andrei
  12. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    Agreed KIWI
  13. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    Got some pics from my trip out to the mechanic.

    Starboard is being packed and shipped to TAD in Virginia for re-build on core exchange basis.

    Port is also out and at the mechanic's place for a bit of an overhaul.

    Both V-drive's and gears are being are being serviced/repaired.

    A small thing that has me pretty excited is the fact that I can clean out the bilge and give the engine compartment some TLC. I'll take picture of that too in a couple of weeks.

    link here

    http://picasaweb.google.com/gcscccolby/PerkinsParts

    This photo speaks volumes of the problem in cylinder #1

    Attached Files:

  14. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Looks like you dropped a valve.
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Thanks for posting the photo.

    If a whole valve had been dropped there would also be damage in the combustion chamber of the piston which in this photo looks relatively unscathed and the valve itself may have been smashed through the cylinder head if the whole thing ended up in the cylinder.

    Broken Rings or foreign body entry to the cylinder leaps to mind, what ever was going around on the top of the piston wasn't very big but it was obviously very hard.

    How badly damaged is the cylinder head face on that Cylinder?

    Do you have a picture of it?
  16. TSI AV

    TSI AV Senior Member

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    Hi,

    It happens. :cool:

    1. Check the camshaft's cams surfaces. Very important.
    2. Cyl. block's geometry has to be checked. I hope, it's ok.
    3. Are pushrods dented ?
    4. Check the conrod's geometry.
    5. Replace all defective parts.
    6. It could be worse... lucky You.

    Such things happen.

    It could be a valve complete or a part of it, or a piston ring, or liner's piece... whatever... has to be fixed anyway now.

    Stay strong, we are with You.

    Sorry for being so far away, otherwise would help myself...

    Regards,

    Andrei
  17. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    Thanks guys.

    My mechanic tells me my stbd block and camshaft are in good shape. But what will matter more to me is the conditon of the new-to-me stbd exchange engine at TAD. Under the core exchange program TAD has begun a re-build of a counter rotating exchange engine before mine actually ships to them. They will ship that re-build to me and keep my long block. They certify that the block is checked for cracks, magna fluxed (I don't know what that means:confused: ), and that everything meets or exceeds Perkins specs.

    They have provided me with the serial # of the block they are working on for me and I've double checked it with Perkins in England to ensure it was counter rotating and a match. They confirmed that it is. So far so good.

    I really appreciate everyone's advice. What we can do on the internet never ceases to amaze me.

    I'll keep you all posted.
  18. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    Got an update on my Port engine today. This is the 1,600 hr re-man that I hoped would only require an overhaul, and fortunately that does seem to be the case.
    My mechanic thinks its in pretty good shape. He said the oil filter was clean as were the valves. Exhaust manifold is in good shape and he had the after cooler boiled and cleaned. He's sending the injectors off for repair or replacement, and replacing all hoses belts etc. The damper fly wheel is worn so he is also replacing it. The turbo was in better shape than I thought so he's just having it serviced/replaced seals etc.

    The v-drive and borg warner gear showed the same knd of wear as stbd so they they are all getting re-built.

    I'm heading out to the boat tomorrow to crawl around the engine compartment. If I don't forget my camera, AGAIN, I Will post pics over the weekend.
  19. newbee

    newbee New Member

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    A little update for all you kind folks who gave this newbee your best advice.

    STARBOARD - (this is the engine that had the bad #1 hole)
    1. I decided that rebuild was my least bad option and settled on www.tad123.com on the opposite coast to do the re-build on a core exchange basis
    2. TAD has been very professional to deal with. They arranged the shipping and paid for one way.
    3. While my long block and accessories were en-route they magna fluxed a core they had in stock and warranty that its free from any cracks. They provided me the Ser # so I could triple check that it was a counter rotator with Perkins in the UK. Which I did, and it is.
    4. Before my crate reached them (8 days) they had finished the long-block re-build with all new Perkins parts and warranty that everything is done to Perkins specs.
    5. Then they cleaned, inspected and refit my accessories that were in good condition. The replacements they recommended were exactly what my local mechanic felt needed replacing (turbo and adapter flange,header tank, timing cover, intake manifold, hoses etc.)
    6. They finished last week and are shipping back.

    Including the labor ,shipping, turbo and replacement accessories the total is right at $11K USD.

    I haven't seen the quality of the work yet, but I can't say enough about how impressive they've been to deal with......so far.....fingers crossed. Unless I get a horrible delivery (which I don't expect), I'd definitely recommend them to any readers.....(so far!).

    The starboard gear and v-drive were re-built by my local mechanic, and are ready to go.

    PORT - (this is the engine that was a factory re-build 1,600 hrs ago in 1995)

    1. the port engine was pulled and sent to my local mechanic for an assesment. He concluded it was in good shape and gave it a "major servicing". Not exactly sure what that means yet.
    2. Port turbo was sent out for servicing. Have not seen that bill yet, but I'm curious to saee how it compares the new unit from TAD fr $995. I'm expecting a local dissapointment to leave room for an upside surprise.
    3. Port gear and v-drive have been re-built/repaired
    4. Total bill for the local work is approx $7K USD (v-drives & gears from both esides, port engine, port turbo)

    The re-instal will start mid to late next week. The timing is pretty good because I'm just about finished the cleaning and painting of the engine compartment.

    The winter was really wet here so up until about 3 weeks ago the bottom was still really tight. She's starting to open up so I'm going to have to start wetting her down, and get back in the ocean ASAP.

    Hopefull I can post a pic of her floating by May 1st.
  20. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I am pleased to read that you seem to have everything under control.

    I would like to thank you on behalf of myself and other YF members for continuing to post your news keeping us updated as to how it's all going.