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Plumbing broken -- underway on delivery voyage

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by niftyc, Jul 1, 2021.

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  1. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    The first few days of owning this boat are turning out to be more exciting than I was hoping. We bought a 63' custom steel trawler-style boat in Northern Canada and have hired a delivery captain to import it into the USA via the St. Lawrence. Short story: The delivery captain is reporting all drains are backing up and we are trying to figure out what to do. I am not aboard and I am communicating with the delivery captain by phone. I am wondering if anyone has ideas to help me problem-solve this.

    Whole story:

    The boat has been stored on the hard for three years. Prior to departure seller was to fill water tanks, empty the waste tank. When the delivery captain arrived on the day of departure, he noticed the shower pan in the aft head was filled with debris. Oily sludge, luckily odorless. Big surprise: The freshwater tank was empty, the waste tank was full. The freshwater tank had apparently drained into the waste tank over the past few days. None of the faucets were open. The seller sent out a plumber.

    The boat has integral steel tanks with the water forward, then the fuel, then waste aft. There is no grey water tank.

    The plumber checked faucets and lines (several hours) and reported that they were fine but the freshwater tank was plumbed THROUGH the waste tank. A sloped stainless steel feed line runs from the water tanks forward THROUGH the fuel tank, then the waste tank, kind of bisecting them, to the water pump in the engine room aft. (I am not a plumber but this sure seems like a bad idea.)

    As all other faucets and lines checked out, his conclusion was that this feed line must have failed INSIDE the waste tank, explaining the drain from water tank to waste tank. He cut out this pipe and indeed found a hairline crack. He replaced with hydraulic hose, his recommendation.

    Our delivery captain got underway. He is now calling me about 70 nm downstream from Montreal. He reports all drains are blocked and everything comes up in the aft shower pan (the lowest drain). He has a shop vac, plumbing snake, buckets, bleach, and a plunger aboard.

    Plunger did not do much. He tried to remove material from the drain with the shop vac. He got some out but he found that the stuff coming up looked very old and dense and dried out. After a while he found nothing else came up from the drain, but it was still plugged. He next tried the plumbing snake but found "something very hard." Not sure if he's hit a bend or a blockage. He is now trying putting hot water down the drain, letting it soak, cool -- then vacuuming it out and repeating.

    My thinking was that he should put in at Montreal for assistance but I have not encountered this situation before so don't know what assistance to ask for. Just call a plumber?

    I'm also thinking that the issue is likely that the winterization was improperly done for the waste and water tanks. Northern Canada is very cold and freezing in the water lines and waste tank could explain this. The old material is evidence that the waste tank was left sitting with waste in it, it should have been emptied for winter.

    All of the metals on the boat have alloy rings that allow welding with dissimilar metals so I am not suspecting electrolysis. The stainless steel pipe had these rings on it.

    Waste plumbing is PVC, except the stainless steel feed line to the pump (with one part of that line now replaced by hydraulic hose).

    I have done quite a bit of reading on this and other forums about plumbing issues aboard but it would be helpful if anyone has been in this situation and has ideas. Also it would be good to know if my "poor winterization" theory "holds water" (ha ha) or if this sounds like some other problem.
  2. f3504x4ps

    f3504x4ps Member

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    Is the MFG still in business, a call to them with Hull number would be best bet and if they have any drawings to send you.
    niftyc likes this.
  3. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    Great thought, I was already in touch with them but they have no drawings that show plumbing. It was a one-of-a-kind boat. I talked to one guy that worked on it 20 years ago and he said yes he thinks it could be plumbed the way I describe and this would have been at the request of the person who commissioned the boat. I checked and the former owners have no drawings that show plumbing. One former owner says yes it is plumbed the way I described.
  4. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Running the pipe between a water tank and the pump thru full and waste tanks has to be the most stupid design ever... easier and safer to run a dip tube at the top of the tank and a hose or pvc from
    There

    and why use hydraulic hose on a fresh water supply which is under suction not under pressure ??? That doesn’t make any sense either. Even on the pressure side of the water pump reinforced hoses and barb fitting works well. No need for hydraulic hose

    now if the water tank emptied in the waste tank because the hose passed thru, your fresh water plumbing and pumps must be contaminated.

    In any case this water tank issue has nothing to do with the shower pan backing up. Shower pans are usually below water line and rely on sump pumps to lift the water overboard. Has your captain located the sump and checked it

    unless of course the genius builder just dumped the shower pan in the bilge and what you are is bilge water coming back up. That would make sense in an aft shower as bilge water would move aft underway
    niftyc likes this.
  5. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    Thanks I think I agree in that I am saying there are two issues: One is a broken pipe that was inside the waste tank (that has been repaired) and the other is a blocked pipe somewhere between the lowest shower drain and the waste tank. I am wondering about the cause of both of these problems being poor winterization.

    I may be explaining this badly -- the integral tanks form the bottom of the boat. Forward of the engine room bulkhead there is no bilge. So I don't think there is a sump anywhere, or anyway the delivery captain can't find it. We're suspecting things drain into the waste tank from pipes just above it. The aft shower is above the waste tank.

    I agree the fresh water system has been contaminated.
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I ve never heard of a shower pan draining straight into the black water taker tank. Makes no sense. First you re going to fill the black water tank very quickly and the you re going to have massive odor issues even with traps.
  7. Sea Gull

    Sea Gull Member

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    Having done deliveries I feel for your Captain. He has done more than many would in terms of trying to solve the drain issue. My suggestion is to let the poor guy off the hook and find him someone who can do this work in a nearby port.
    niftyc likes this.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I worked on a steel 97’ yacht that all grey and black water went into the black water tank, granted the tank was 1000 gallons. It is quite possible that’s what is going on here.

    what BRAND of trawler are we talking about here? This wouldn’t happen to be a Cape Horn would it?

    Why did you buy a boat that’s been sitting for 3 years and expect someone to successfully deliver it, without having a professional test and service all of the systems?
  9. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Yeah... surprised the captain agreed to this. I don’t do deliveries anymore but I usually wanted a full day before departure to do the preflight and test systems. Especially If the boat had been sitting all that time
  10. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    It is a custom build. Yes, that comparison with the other yacht is right on -- in this case it is a 600 gallon black water tank.

    As to Captain J's last comment, I'm not sure I deserve your tone. Maybe I do, but I don't think so. I had the boat reconditioned by the yard that built it. This included all hoses, new batteries, new fluids, bottom sandblasting, new bottom paint, and extensive testing. The seller provided a survey. I had two additional surveys done, so I have three in hand. I did the second survey because the first was not detailed enough and this was worrying, but all surveys look great. The boat passed the sea trial with flying colors. The delivery captain had a day to do preflight and tests (and that is when he discovered the first issue -- the freshwater draining into waste tank). The delivery captain has 350 nm underway so far and reports all systems running well except for this blockage.

    The yard clearly feels bad about it and it sounds like they might pick up the cost of the repair I am not sure yet.
  11. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    Thanks for saying that -- I completely agree. The delivery captain is the real hero here. I had no idea how hard the life of a delivery captain must be. It turns out he actually brought a bucket with him -- I guess for this kind of eventuality (!!) even though there were no indications of a problem like this I guess he's been here before? I'm just speculating as to why he brought a bucket.

    It's amazing but the delivery captain is asking me for ideas about what else he might try because he does not want to stop. He is convinced this is a minor problem and he can fix it himself before he reaches Montreal if only he can figure out how. I certainly don't have any knowledge of what would happen if my theory is correct and the seller froze his not-empty waste tanks and created a blockage with 3-year-old "debris." Or how to fix it. Let me know if you have any ideas.

    (Note that I am paying him by the day and not by the mile, so he makes more money if he stops. He doesn't want to keep going because he gets more money.)
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Normally if a boat has been sitting 3 years you go through all systems and check things like this before leaving the dock. An empty water tank and a full holding tank would’ve had me calling the seller confirming he actually did fill the water tank. Etc etc etc. most would do a short trip to test everything given it’s been sitting so long. Any good delivery captains would go through everything given the history before departing. Just lots of red flags. Sounds like the holding tank is full. Tell him to pump out the holding tank. Doubtful it’s a blockage.
  13. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    Yes, as you say we immediately called the seller and confirmed they had filled the water tank. They confirmed it. Yes we emptied the holding tank when it was full. The yard did a test trip, I am not sure of its length. Of course there were also the sea trials.

    I have to say I am not sure I see how this is the delivery captain's fault. The surveyors and the delivery captain reported that they tested the heads and showers and sinks and they drained. I guess he could have run a lot of water through the drains as a test and that may have revealed the problem? And it sounds like he did not do that?

    If you doubt a blockage any ideas as to what else it might be? On the threads I am reading it seems like blockages are the problems people have.
  14. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    "what BRAND of trawler are we talking about here? This wouldn’t happen to be a Cape Horn would it?"

    No, this yacht was custom-built at a commercial yard in Quebec. Niftyc is new to boating and new to YF. The Canadian border is still closed and has presented one obstacle after another, each of which niftyc has managed to overcome. I think he will be a great addition to YF. Thanks to those trying to help out.
    yr2030 likes this.
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I don’t think anyone suggested it was the captain’s fault. He is the one who has to deal with all the unknown, questionable and undocumented systems.

    hopefully everything else is working fine...

    People always under estimate how much will need to be done on a boat that has been sitting or that has just left a yard. As mentioned, being full time I don’t do deliveries anymore but when I used to it was always the same story. Yard has done this, mechanic has fixed that. Then on day one, the same issues popped up. Owners were charged for the work though but either poorly fixed or untested.
  16. Rodger

    Rodger Senior Member

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    Judy looks like this is a Canadian boat going to Detroit if this is the case make sure the Captain stays in Canada, if he stopes in the America for fuel or supplies he will have to fill out forms for CBSA (Canada Customs) and has to give 48 hours notice before he can transit the Welland Canal. If this happens let me no and I will send you the forms.
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  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The shower has to drain somewhere, it is 99% of the time below the water line. So your Captain has to follow the hose to where it is draining to. My guess is this boat was built as a zero discharge boat since the holding tank is so massive (600 gallons). My guess is it is draining into the holding tank and the holding tank is full. But could also be draining into a sump and sump pump not working. Generally the hose runs for a shower drain are not that far. How big is your water tank?

    Before I leave the dock, on any boat that has been sitting or unfamiliar to me. I familiarize the boat and check every system, every bilge, every bilge pump and on and on. Every good delivery Captain I know of does this, unless it's a yacht I'm or they are extremely familiar with. I get that the Canadian border issue has been a major issue. But given the boat has been sitting 3 years, that's a very long time, I would've spent a day going through every bilge and system on the vessel before leaving the dock.
  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Neither do I, but I would also go one step further, and suggest that there's no major "fault" from anyone involved.
    I mean, I struggle to understand all the criticisms from people who know perfectly that on any boat, things just break.
    Hindsight is a a great thing, of course.
    But the problem which is being discussed, annoying as it is, certainly ain't critical for the boat safety.
    Besides, it's easy to guess that once all problem details will be understood, fixing it shouldn't be such a big deal.

    Bottom line, a 20 years old boat which (at a guess, reading between the lines) must be rather complex, sat on the hard for three years, and now shows ONLY this problem? That sounds like a great purchase in my books, and we should congratulate the OP for that, wishing him a lot of happy cruising with her.
    In any case, I for one am looking forward to hear more about a vessel which sounds very intriguing, and maybe see some pics of her, if and when the OP will feel like sharing them with us.
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  19. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    Maybe the yard that built the boat can send their guy(s) to look at the issue. even though it is an older model and their guy(s) may not have had a hand in the initial built, their guy would be familiar with the yards techniques and waste less time scratching their heads.

    I say this w/o having to foot the bill tho.

    Also Cudos to the captain for going the extra mile.
  20. niftyc

    niftyc New Member

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    The captain is assuring me that he has followed the pipes and there is no sump. He also repeated that the waste tank is empty and it is not backing up.

    It sounds like there is no MacGyver-like solution to quickly help the captain brew a magic potion that dissolves ancient once-frozen feces while underway (assuming that is the problem). I didn't think there would be... but you never know, this forum sometimes contains amazing things. (Like a fresh water pipe plumbed through a waste tank!)

    Update: His current plan is to get a better snake, a plunger (I thought he had one but I guess not), and some liquid plumber from a hardware store while waiting for his lock reservation. He seems much less concerned about it now, he seems confident that he can fix it. I guess he managed to restore some slow drainage using his hot-water soaks and this has given him new confidence. As he is the person on the spot I am going to let him do what he recommends.

    Definitely happy to share pictures but probably after I get my hands on the boat.

    I think the best thing about this thread so far is that I showed it to my wife and she said, "I want my own bucket. I'm not sharing."
    TahoeJohn likes this.