Click for YF Listing Service Click for Nordhavn Click for Cross Click for Perko Click for Westport

Boat purchase questions

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Drifter, Nov 15, 2020.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    I am looking for a 48-55 foot sedan bridge circa 2000s in the $200-300K range.

    1. Do you suggest I hire a buyer's broker? What are the critical questions to ask when hiring one? How does one reduce the conflict of interest where the buyer's broker won't ask the toughest questions because he/she wants the purchase to close and get paid?
    2. What are some common signs of problems of poorly maintained engines? Engines with vastly differing hours? Recent major rebuilds? Are recently rebuilt turbos and exhaust elbows an advantage or a sign of problems?
    3. What are some signs of well maintained vessels other than getting an inspection, fiberglass inspection, and oil test? Are recent updates a better indicator that the owner spent to maintain?
  2. Alzira II

    Alzira II Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2019
    Messages:
    159
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Freshwater!
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    11,205
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Rather than a broker I'd hire a captain. A good, experienced captain can narrow down your search and save you the cost of surveying boats that aren't worth it. He can also direct your negotiations.
    As Alzira mentioned freshwater use is a big plus. Engine hours you don't want too many or too few; 100-200 hours per year is what I like to see. Smoke, bad engine noises, vibrations are some tell tales of poorly maintained engines. Even a dirty engine room. This is one place where that captain will come in real handy. Premature rebuilds aren't good, but timely rebuilds are giving new life to older motors. I'd rather buy a boat that was just rebuilt than one that is about to need it. If the port and stbd motors have vastly different hours it says that one motor had a problem and the other could have it coming. Something to investigate. Recent upgrades are a good thing.
    If all that pleases you it's probably time for you and the captain to take a look. From there get a survey.
    P.S. If you're new to this size vessel there's a good chance your insurance company will require a captain be with you for the first year. This would be a good way of checking a captain's experience. You want one with at least 5 years experience (2nd issue license).
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  4. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    How many hours is customary for a rebuild? I have had 4 boats, at least 400 hours, and presently have a 41 express cruiser. I am considering getting my captain's license in the next few months. What level do you suggest? OUPV? 25 or 50 ton? Towing? I wonder if a new captains license will qualify or must I have a minimum number of hours. Thank you for the info!
  5. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    11,205
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Depends on the motor and use, 3,000-7,000. Consider that getting a license could subject you to a different level of liability, but if you proceed your experience will determine your tonnage and endorsements if any. What you want the captain for is his experience in choosing the right boat, not his license. Your 41 may eliminate the need to hire a captain your first year, but that'll be up to your insurance company. For now the captain can help narrow down your search. He or she can help you determine the style that suits your planned use, which manufacturers to consider, which look good on paper, which stand up to inspection, what you should offer and why, and help your negotiations. He can also help find a good surveyor.
  6. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    I've seen some rebuilds with 1000-1500 hours, so is it safe to assume those are red flags? I have a boater friend who did minimal maintenance on his boat and its now having issues but some boaters just seem to be the type to want to turn the key and have fun without the hassle of having a properly maintained machine.
  7. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    11,205
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Unfortunately that describes most boaters. As long as they have money to burn (and don't mind taking a car service home), good for them. There's a thousand things on a boat that can break down., stop you cold and maybe kill you. No need to maintain the ones you don't mind breaking down.:rolleyes: Every cruise starts with an engine room check and the more you know from there the better. Remember there's not a service station on every corner for boats.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,149
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    A buyers broker is very helpful as you have somebody on your side handling paperwork, contracts, holding deposit in escrow. And it s free

    hiring a captain has benefits but it s going to cost you although indeed it may be worth it. It depends on your experience. If you have no or little experience then yes, it will be a big help as he will able to see issues you will not.

    as to license, again it all depends on your experience level. There is a minimal number of days you need even for an OUPV. 360 days is the minimum including 90 in the last 3 years. For a master. It’s 720 days. A days is 4 hours underway (not docked and not anchored)
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    11,205
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Your first paragraph is what your attorney does. He's better qualified. With a buyer's broker there's too many ways into conflict and you get what you pay for. When the owner is starry eyed and the brokers are looking to make commissions on a sale that captain is looking for why you shouldn't buy the boat. Even if the buyer has a lot of experience he can benefit from that unbiased eye and the experience behind it.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,434
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    You can also get a better deal a lot of times if dealing with the sellers broker, if the deal is tight, well they have twice the commission to work with and some will cut commission a little to make a skinny deal (for the owner) happen.
  11. LuvBigBoats

    LuvBigBoats Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Messages:
    162
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    When I bought my boat I had a discussion about this topic with my agent (wasn't applicable then but I was just curious). An experienced agent with years buying and selling under his belt. He said he never cuts his commission, even when he's the only broker in the deal. I thought that was really surprising given what I've seen with real estate over the years. Glad to hear some are actually doing that, since it makes sense.

    To the OP, whether you hire an agent depends on whether you think you're capable of doing the tasks the agent would do for you, including finding the boat, finding the surveyor, negotiating, paperwork, etc. The only thing keeping me from hiring an agent would be the thought that I could get the boat cheaper if I did these things myself and could get a lower price because the seller's agent will cut his commission. As I said above not all agents will do this.

    For the other items I would rely heavily on the surveyor (and hire one with a great reputation). You could also hire a captain as mentioned above but then you're out of pocket on every boat you have him look at.
  12. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    11,205
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Cutting commissions is a very slippery slop that most reputable brokers will avoid lest they get the reputation of a "cut-rate" or "fly by night" broker. Plus they only have so much room to move before they're working for free. I wouldn't get my surveyor from the broker due to possible conflicts and attorneys are better at protecting you with the paperwork than a broker who may not have your best interest at heart. Yes hiring a captain will result in a bill for each boat you check out. If you have a knowledgeable friend who will look at it with an educated eye towards why you shouldn't buy the boat great. Otherwise that captain is a cheap investment and a lot cheaper than hiring surveyors who may kill the deal for might have have been fairly obvious deficiencies.
  13. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    That’s what I thought. If I bring a buyer’s broker, the seller’s broker is only making 3% anyway. Why wouldn’t the seller’s broker take 4% to represent both, I choose my own surveyor and captain, and go from there. What do I gain with a buyer’s broker?
  14. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    Finding boats seems easy thanks to the internet. The concept of pocket deals never made sense to me because why wouldn’t the seller want top dollar if there was nothing wrong. Pocket deals sound like red flags. Surveyor and Captain sounds like the way to go.
  15. Drifter

    Drifter Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    90
    Location:
    Gibsonia, PA
    The original 6% realtor fee was due to high newspaper advertising costs and having intimate knowledge of the home’s neighborhood. Zillow and Carvana appear to be the future due to cheap internet search info and people who are tired of paying high commissions for a glorified paper shuffle, as if boat prices aren’t high enough. I agree about the captain and surveyor being worth it.
  16. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,513
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    A few clarifications:

    The standard commission for yacht brokers is 10% and is paid by the seller. If a broker brings a "selling broker" client to that "listing broker," then the listing broker splits his commission usually in a 50/50 split. So using a buyer's broker means that the listing broker splits his commission instead of getting the whole 10% for himself.

    To use a listing broker on the assumption that he will cut his commission is foolish. A competent buyer's broker is usually able to negotiate a selling price based on market comparables that is more tangible than hoping a listing broker reduces his commission by a few points. I don't know of any qualified, competent brokers that reduce their commissions and certainly not more than a point or two under specific circumstances (such as a repeat client.) Penny wise, dollar foolish as they say.

    A surveyor(s) is critical. A captain can be an additional resource. However, what a broker offers is the ability to preview boats for a client at no charge, check the "sold" prices of recent sales of comparable vessels, knowledge of comparable vessels, and current market activity. A broker will also best know which listing broker might necessitate keeping a closer eye on how factual the information might be that is being relayed or how the deal is being handled. Additionally, buyer funds are held in buyer's broker escrow account and the broker is working solely for the buyer.

    A buyer's broker is not always necessary. There are a lot of great and honorable brokers that I would support you dealing with directly as the listing broker. However, for the thousands of the other brokers, a buyer's broker offers you numerous levels of protection...and for free.

    Judy
  17. Zud

    Zud Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    PA
    What Judy said!!!!
  18. bayoubud

    bayoubud Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2017
    Messages:
    1,149
    Location:
    Florida
    If you find a boat online that you would like to see just call the selling broker and ask if the commission is less by you not hiring a buyers broker, most will reduce the commission. I have had a broker say leave your broker at home and I can get you a better deal. Then use some of the commission savings to hire a highly rated hull and engine surveyors that has a reputation for being thorough. The surveyors can be the most important part of the process. If you don't have the expertise, hire a captain as mentioned to do a walk thru inspection with you to see if the boat is worthy of making an offer.