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Our Navy's Stupid Mistakes

Discussion in 'YachtForums Yacht Club' started by brian eiland, Apr 14, 2020.

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  1. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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  2. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Frigates Another F bomb?

    U.S. Navy Awards Guided Missile Frigates Contract to Fincantieri’s Marinette Marine Corporation

    April 30, 2020 by Mike Schuler


    The U.S. Navy has awarded Marinette Marine Corporation with the detail design and construction contract for up to 10 Guided Missile Frigates.

    The initial contract covers one base ship for $795 million and up to nine additional ships which could bring the total value to more than $5.5 billion if all options are exercised.

    The Guided Missile Frigates will be the Navy’s newest class of warships, with multi-mission capability to conduct air warfare, anti-submarine warfare, surface warfare, electronic warfare, and information operations.


    “The Navy’s Guided-Missile Frigate (FFG(X)) will be an important part of our future fleet,” said Chief of Naval Operations, Adm. Mike Gilday. “FFG(X) is the evolution of the Navy’s Small Surface Combatant with increased lethality, survivability, and improved capability to support the National Defense Strategy across the full range of military operations. It will no doubt help us conduct distributed maritime operations more effectively, and improve our ability to fight both in contested blue-water and littoral environments.”

    The acquisition process for the frigates was launched in 2017. It launched the detail design and construction Request for Proposals last June with technical proposals received in August and cost proposals were received in September. Competitors for the contract included Huntington Ingalls Industries, a team consisting of General Dynamics and Spain’s Navantia, and Austal.

    Marinette Marine Corporation of Marinette, Wisconsin is a subsidiary of Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri.
  3. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    It is actually a good choice based on a proven design and the programs requirements.
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Marinette Marine Corporation of Marinette, Wisconsin is a subsidiary of Italian shipbuilder Fincantieri.

    Years ago, only the U S built U S ships with U S equipment.
    Could this be any of our U S Navy problems?
  5. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Years ago there were significantly more shipyards and repair facilities. The US Naval Industry was actually much BIGGER years ago, they had the infrastructure to support the design and engineering of their own vessels, and even then used foreign "consultants". There were more shipyards for new construction and repairs, today we are at a point that could be considered near the minimum.

    The resource footprint is actually smaller today and requires globalization and even cross-pollenization amongst friendly allies.

    If you look at major US Naval Yards you will see many foreign partnerships:

    Bath Iron Works - Navantia (Spain)
    NASSCO, Ingalls and VT Halter - Korea

    The growth has been on Weapons Systems, that is where the big bucks are spent and that Industry has "exploded" in size. Technology is good, but it comes at a price $$$.
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I understood then that in time of failures parts and support was all in our hands.
    I'm sure security was of thought also.

    Were ars now, witnessing failures of important components that make the ship move at all.
    Where is the technology, repair parts and support on these items coming from?

    The LCS and these Dumbwalt tubs are an enemies best friend. We will go broke keeping them mobile before we can even arm them.

    Oh, lets build another class of NATO or Joint floaters.

    Fancy weapons may be real cool but if you can not deploy it's platform quickly and %100 reliably, then it is a waste of time, money and endangers lives.
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  7. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Don't understand your point.

    The FFG has GE Gas Turbines (so did the Italian version), electric motors will be from the US, the Controls and Platform Management Systems will be from the US, plenty of US content where it exists.

    Known problems like the US Carrier electro-magnetic Launch System are US developed as well. All on our back.

    In today's world, if you do not have a co-response with all or part of NATO, you are not being a good neighbor anymore. All of our responses are handled this way today.
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    The LCS have transmission issues and the first 3 ships suffered from this. Including the first one already deployed in west pac.
    Took two repairs for a Dumbwalt to clear the Panama Canal.
    I understood this was foreign built issues.
    Some story, long ago, suspected sabotage but was never followed up on. Hence my security point also.

    I'm an US Army brat. Very Very big fan of the US Navy.
    Anybody with heart large enough to serve, deserves the best.

    Also Don't need poor & expensive platforms built just to keep a congressman's area happy.

    I just want the service folks to have the best rite out of our factory, first time every time. Their lives depend on this.
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  9. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    LCS Odd numbered ships are from Marinette, Even numbered from Austal. The first in class of each ship all have their issues, in this instance there are two first in class because of the separate designs and yards. The Austal ships have been forward deployed for awhile.

    Zumwalt is pure electric propulsion, no gearbox, lead mostly by US teams with support from UK offices.

    https://www.gepowerconversion.com/sites/default/files/MARINE_GEA20339 - DDG1000 - Case study.pdf

    The security around these ships during construction is quite visible, Zumwalt has armed security on land and in the water at all times, no messing around at that program.

    The Navy is the Authority when writing and procuring goods to their requirements, they are the final word.
  10. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    My security comment was for in house issues.
    Notes in Italy, the boat yard and in many other hands contributing to design and remote mfg in between.
    Just to many people have access to designs of things.
    Ahh, Err, Uhh,,, The higher up officers go into the private sector every day. Holly-Wood wrote the scripts.
    Lower officers and crew may be happy to get a new ship, Their excitement will long be a memory when they are targeted as they drift off shore or thru a canal.

    I could be just beating my chest poorly, I just want the best for those that serve.
    I don't need a perfect lawn at some politicians house.
    I don't need to employ people building a false project that does not work better than what we had.
    Check #34 above.
  11. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    You might have to consider trashing these ships rather than trying to spend all the money and efforts to get them operational,...for what mission??

  12. GhostriderIII

    GhostriderIII Senior Member

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    The newest vessels for the Navy are Trimarans and they work great, as long as they carry enuf fuel to go the distance. That's where the older, deeper drafted ships were superior.
  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    "USS Bonhomme Richard" on fire in the harbour of San Diego.

    Sorry for posting this on this thread but our news are full with news about the large fire on the 23 year old aircraft carrier under overhaul in the harbour of SanDiego. Since Sunday morning the vessel is burning and a high poosibility is reported, that the carrier will sink very soon. It is further reported, that the total loss of this ship would the biggest loss in the history of the US Navy.

    Navy-Ship-Fire.jpg
    urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-200713-99-771163-large-4-3-jpg.jpg US-ACCIDENT-NAVY.jpg
    USA-NAVY-FIRE.jpg

    It is said that the fire protection system was deactivated during the outbreak of the fire due to repair and maintenance on the Halon System. And the fire crew was not on board during the outbreak.

    Thanks god nobody has been killed or actually severely injured jet.

    Are there any news or knowledge among our members?
  14. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Maybe if you add 'in recent years'. But I'd have to think it's not even close to the biggest loss in terms of real dollars, deaths nor even injuries. It's bad, but remember WWII?
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I did not know the fire systems were down.
    There are some comments and more pictures in G-Captain.
    Lower machine spaces are fine. Helos are dumping water on the deck to keep the flight deck from buckeling.
    Looked like the whole forward tower and all the upper hangar deck was aflame. What the heck is burning? Fresh paint?
    Forward radar mast has fallen, Geeezze.

    Makes me think; 4 days later and this is still out of control.
    In 1945, larger ship fires were put out with torpedo holes in the side, bomb holes in the deck, before halon, under way, middle of an ocean and in hours. Oh, enemy plains still in the above air. Bless them.
  16. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I terms of tonnage yes and in the complete history of the US forces including all wars. The aircraft carrier USS Lexington sunk by the Japanese in WW II during the battle of Australia was up to date the biggest single total loss of the US Navy / Marine Corps. USS Bonhomme Richard would be a much bigger loss, both in costs and tonnage. Sorry NYCAP!

    I hope the mighty vessel can be saved and repaired. But there are some questions comming up. If You switch off Your primary fire fighting sytem and Your only possible backup, a fully trained and equipped fire fighting crew is located in the barracks, this does not sound very smart.

    Btw. same thing happened at the Sassy fire at the Luerssen yard. Main system still inop and insufficient fire guards on board.
  17. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Intriguing question.

    You are talking of a yard based in Wisconsin, ran by American engineers and workers, which pretty sure fits as much US components as technically possible - possibly aside from some bits which they must source from PRC, because that's where someone in the US who used to make them moved the production, in order to save some bucks.
    And you don't like that because it's a subsidiary of one of the most respected shipbuilders on this planet, who just happens to be based in Italy?
    By the same token, you must think that Boeing is a fantastic company because it's headquartered in the US, rather than a bunch of "clown designers supervised by monkeys", I suppose.
    NOT my definition by the way - that's also a genuine US product, as you surely know.

    You might as well consider the possibility that the very simple answer to your question is NO, methink.
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Non-wartime naval shipbuilding is a much different environment then the WWII efforts of the past.

    Most US shipyards have global alliances and share technologies that gain efficiencies. US yards working on Naval Programs have direct links with Italian, Spanish, UK and South Korean yards at a minimum, depending on their alliances.

    When you look at a current UK Naval Program, like the Type 26 Frigate, it will eventually have direct links with Australia and Canada and the US as well. Basically, Lockheed Martin is everywhere.
  20. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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