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Smart Crew

Discussion in 'Yacht Crews' started by Teenna, Jun 30, 2006.

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  1. Teenna

    Teenna New Member

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    I doubt.
    I would, like I do in my life elswhere, built my crew on a mutual respect. I'd pay them a good money because they are professionals (and because now this is the way the market is), but exactly because they are professionals, they don't screw in my bed and pee in my jacuzzi, ok? With 9000 per month (month on/month off) they will take their dates in their nice hotel room with a jacuzzi, if necessary and do all they want to do there. And if they will desire a massage or a mud bath, they will go to the Hotel the Paris above the marina, pay 100 bucks and enter the therms just like any other mortal on this world. But my yacht I built for myself. And I want this respect from my crew.
  2. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    Independence Day

    Considering the general trend of this thread I can't think of a more appropriate day to say "God Bless America!"
    Happy 4th of July Everyone...
  3. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    (Thanks for the edit Kevin)

    C4ENG,

    I’m sorry you are disappointed. Let me see if I can further dissatisfy you…

    Your remark and my follow-up were NOT relevant to the topic. To put your concerns at rest… it is VERY rare that I remove a post, unless it is found to be in poor taste, obscene or malicious. If you are concerned with how I may be influencing threads, then I must ask… how are you influencing the thread with toilet paper jokes?

    If you have an issue with me, contact me. If you feel it your moral obligation to protect the rights of YF members, then by all means... start a thread on the subject. But please… don’t change the vector of thread because you have a grievance with me.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and assert that I may have a little more experience running a forum than you do. I know this is hard to believe and really far fetched, but go along with me on a hypothetical basis for a moment… if you came across a forum and found people making short, snide remarks of little relevance… is this a place you would be interested in joining or sharing knowledge?

    It’s ironic… I thought I was doing you (and everyone) a favor by removing your comment and my response. And then you re-posted it. :rolleyes:
  4. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    It is interesting that so many see this issue in black and white in there own opinon of what the standards should be across the board. But lets face it we all have different personal standards. And it is up to the owner to set what the standards are the yacht in question, and for the captain aided by the ships officers to enforce them.
    As far as kick backs go they used to be common place especially in europe, I always put them back into ships petty cash and noted in the accounts what who they were from, I had an owner who know and understood the system. I haven't been offered a kickback in years, but I am sure it still happens.
  5. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Mr. YachtForums,

    I have to agree with you on that. I would not want to travel through this thread if it was full short snide remarks with not much meaning like I have done. I am sorry to everyone for distrupting the natrual flow of the conversation. Please continue on the topic.
  6. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Good point, Dave. There is substantial growth in the numbers of larger yachts, the owners of which are predominantly entrepeneurs, one would assume, who know how to work with people (excepting the odd dot-commer with a bad haircut, natch) and understand delegation. That is, after all, how they became successful enough to enjoy a life in yachting.
    Further assuming that the yacht captain, who was hired by the owner ( and who knows what pleases/displeases said owner), to manage the crew, can we not imagine that it is this captain who sets the tone for using/not using the onboard toys & amenities.
    While the links for Teenna's nymphs-in-the-pool photos are gone (dang it), if I were walking past this scene in the marina, I'd have to assume that the captain OK'ed this shipboard style because he knew the owner didn't have a problem with it.

    BTW, in the latest issue of that glossy megayacht periodical "Show-something-or-other", there's an article about modern crew's quarters design ( in both a De Vries and a Van Lent, no less) and it touches on the importance of maintaining a happy crew.
    Someone--the owner, or the captain, or the yard, or a collaboration-- deemed this to be as important as the owner's accommodations areas.
  7. Teenna

    Teenna New Member

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    We are talking about BIG here. I agree, that in this case, having 25 or more people on the crew list one has to think that instead of having them all around the yacht in their free time (and not offering them only the mooring deck for a smoke or two) ther should be a proper "free time " area on board, including perhaps on the bilge deck or lower deck (where in this large yachts there is some extra space) a gym, perhaps a cinema, definetly an internet point, and, why not, a little spa. Definetly a barber "shop" (proper cut is fundamental as it is pedicure and manicure) and at the end also a litlle "spiritual" corner. Go laugh, but some best crew can be of a muslim religion.
  8. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    Apologies for not getting back earlier. In fact, I had to reread the whole thread from the beginning because I forgot what exactly we were supposed to be discussing... :eek: Anyway, the original issue of the abusive use by crew of facilities aboard seems to have widened to encompass other more general issues involving professional crew...

    Teenna, I do think you enjoy provoking people...?! ;) You started this thread with a link to some photos ostensibly of crew on M/Y Ice using the swimming pool aboard. Adding that the captain only bothers to come down from his villa in Grasse when the owner is aboard. Are you perhaps merely envious that some in the yachting industry still just have it too good from your personal standpoint?! :p Anyway, Grasse is really not a very glamourous place to live. Some regard it as an "inland dormitory town" for those who can't quite afford to live on the coast. Of course, it's world-famous for the production of essences that go into perfumes etc. but it also has an important prison on a prominent hillside overlooking the town. On the other hand, Mougins has always been pretty excusive and is even more glamorous today. I know of a captain who lived there 20 years ago...and still does. The 40m. yacht used to have a permanent berth in Antibes and the owner had invested in several other berths there on the advice of his skipper, who oversaw these investments on behalf of his employer in addition to his normal duties. Life was hard for a skipper in those days: satellite navigation was still in its infancy (one good fix an hour was excellent!) and GPS had not yet entered the common vocabulary; the yacht was used continuously by the owner, his children and invited guests for almost 2 months every year, which mean't being away from home for about 4 whole months between May and August all told; the rest of the year, the skipper would have to come in about 10am every other day, devoting sufficient time to ensure that the off-season work schedule was proceeding according to plan etc., before a hefty lunch with assorted yacht brokers, port officials and other captains and just mates etc. (sorry Crewagency but I don't believe that crew agents or even yacht managers were very thick on the ground back then...?! :D ), after which there would follow a siesta by (his own pool) and perhaps a round of golf or some tennis once it became cooler later on. I bet that what I just recounted has Teenna literally steaming... :)

    I'd just like to say that I tend to agree with what Garry Hartshorn had to say on the issues. My only confusion is, when offered kickbacks, why did you not just ask for these kickbacks to be shown as a discount appearing on the actual invoice? :confused: At least that way, you would have made it abundantly clear to the supplier that you weren't "on the take", regardless of how the kickbacks were officially accounted for afterwards...

    Often, one surmises whether what yacht owners actually spend as an important added-expense to "running a yacht" on employing the services of assorted yacht broker/managers and crew agents "over and above that of employing a single competent yacht captain", actually produces any net reduction in the overall costs or other benefit...?! Have there been any independent studies into this...? Why do the majority of large yacht owners today appear to feel obliged to not only use their broker for buying and selling, but for almost everything else too? Are the majority newcomers, or have they just been sufficiently terrified into believing that without these professional after-sales services, the owner will soon be fleeced competely without a dime left...?! Undoubtedly, having a dishonest skipper, or merely incompetent manager or agent would easily skew results no end too...?! It's all very well for a manager to say that they can control costs or that they can purchase parts and services at a wholesale rate. But can they deliver these when and where required...?! In my experience, even the most well-established majors just don't have the expertise or infrastructure in place everywhere their clients cruise (and more importantly, break down or require parts or supplies urgently), wherein the reliance upon competent local-suppliers (and additional costs to cover the supplier's margins - they're not being paid a standard fat fee every month by the owner "to take care of things" ) It's all very well "standing by" whilst sitting in an air-conditioned office in Cannes, Antibes, Monaco, Fort Lauderdale or wherever but when the engineer needs a technician or part to rapidly repair the owner's spa or whatever, your professional yacht captain had better have his own private filofax in addition to relying on the official yacht manager... :rolleyes:

    Crewagency:
    But just how many of these 9,000 crew are employed aboard yachts?! I admit, there aren't many yachts I deal with which have a "crew rotation" of "x" period "ON" and "x" period "OFF". On one of these few yachts I deal with, the chief engineer actually took a major pay cut in order to justify the additional expense of employing another chief in order to implement a 2 months "ON" and 2 months "OFF" schedule (compromise between he wanting the time off and the owner wanting to keep him on). Apart from emergencies, I'd be surprised if he expected to be disturbed during his "OFF" period though. Yet, it appears that in your commercial world, someone may be "OFF", yet be expected to undertake onshore duties on a regular basis...?! By the way, do you really want your crews negotiating directly with shipyards etc. - wouldn't they have even more opportunity to obtain kickbacks...?! :confused: You also remarked on the concept of loyalty. Presumably, your income source is from the employer, not the crew member who probably does not pay you anything directly for your services. I present you with a hypothetical case (but I think a realistic one): You place one chief engineer aboard an older yacht. You spent a week checking his references and it appears that you did your job right because he does a good job according to the feedback you've had from the owner and/or manager of the vessel aboard which you placed him/her. Six months later, another owner/manager asks you to find 20-30 crew for a brand new yacht. Now, where are the loyalties?!

    Do you contact that chief engineer that you placed 6 months ago because 1) The pay and conditions are better, it would be a step-up on the ladder for him?

    2) You don't want to risk losing this new client who is engaging you for a whole crew, not just one or two, so you encourage this chief engineer to move because it would be in your combined best interests...?

    3) You don't contact that chief engineer because of this so-called "loyalty conflict", you decide instead to risk disappointing a client on whom you're going to earn commissions on 20-30 crew, by taking the chance of supplying a new chief engineer (even if you checked their references for a week beforehand) of whom you really know nothing about...


    Yeah, right...?! There's loyalty and best interest (whose?)...always! So, let's not forget that :rolleyes:

    The best chief engineer I ever came across was one who knew how to repair lawn mowers. He knew how to deal with all the yacht managers and agents too. Strangely enough, that yacht had astro-turf up on the sundeck... :)
  9. Teenna

    Teenna New Member

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    Just to not interrupt too much your interesting post, YES, I do like to provoke, it's my nature, and no, I haven't got in mind Grasse centrum, but I didn't count on someones such precise knowledge of what i was talking about. I had more in mind lands above Grasse, where one can keep some olive trees and see down to the coast. :)
  10. Leveller

    Leveller Senior Member

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    I think this is one of the most interesting threads I ever read in YF.

    I can understand both sides in this discussion. But there are some points I can not agree with, also, both sides.

    Thinking of 150 ft. at a cost of 35 to 50 million $ and yearly maintenence at lets say 10 % of the building cost, what are 50 $ for gas for the jetski? If someone can pay the built and the maintenence of a yacht this size this wouldn't doing him any harm. If he needs to save every cent to let his dream go on than something on his side went wrong. A yacht is not a Cobra you put in the garage when not using it.

    Surely I would get angry if I would find out that the crew is having a lazy time while I am away from the yacht, not giving my "baby" the professional care which they are paid for, or find the silver knifes at EBAY, whilst the knifes aboard replaced by some plagiats from china, or chocolate between the seats in my cinema.

    But I think of loyality in an other way. If we are on a trip through an hurrican, pirate active zones or other kinds of troubble, I would really be happy if I can count on everyone aboard at 100%. If there are misfeelings due to slaveryvessel like crewquarters or middleage behavior of the owner we will never reach 100%. And what will you do if the crew, after you played Napoleon, leaves you alone in the middle of nowhere?

    I have done this once, the owner wanted to cross the Biscaya, not travelling the coastline, in late october, 6 to 8 ft. waves, stormwarning, with a 68 ft. Sea Ray like fly, with defect radar and after an electrical breakdown, without all navigational instruments. We left him in Brest, France. He hired a fisherman and tried it by himself. The wreck is still in the Golf of Lorient. Before that it was a week of stupid rules. Don't touch that, polish the toilet till you can see your face in it after using, don't use the shower, "No, you can't eat something out of the fridge. Haven't you brought something with you? No? Then you have to stay hungry."

    We do only transfering jobs, but for some clients we would do everything, even cleaning the cats toilet or playing holiday nanny for the children, not only aboard. But this special services comes out of loyality over many years from both sides. Most clients specialy in the above 100 ft. sector have no problems with letting us using all the yacht facilitys during the transfer as long they are in the original shape when the transfer is over.

    I think Lady Lola is a good example for making crewquarters so to have a happy crew. Consequense: Happy and relaxed owner.

    Leveller
  11. world citizen

    world citizen New Member

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    prejudice

    I do not like you provoking and underestimate my profession.
    You think that a Master maneuvering a 200 meters 25 years old passenger ship in ports 190 meters width and with force 6 carrying 2000 passenger is not good enough to maneuver a 80 meters yacht with bow , stern even a DP system? or that managing 160 or 200 crew members from all nationalities is easier than having 20 or maybe 25 crew. Do you think a Master coming out of a VLCC (Very large Crude Carrier), in case you are not familiar with the term, who has to deal with the authorities of dictatorship regimes jeopardizing every time his freedom, is not competent enough to deal with suppliers or port authorities in Nice.

    I am very sorry to see that you are so prejudice; attitudes like yours real have a negative effect in the industry.
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I don't want to offend you World Citizen but have to say that if you have the command experience of the large vessels you talk about in your post you must have truely unique experience during your tenure aboard these vessels.

    Dealing with Port Authorities anywhere is something I would expect based upon my own experience and the experience of other ex Merchant Guys to be something that was in 99% of cases done through the shipping companies home office and preferred agent.

    You can't expect anyone to believe that you are going to turn up off a port in a Passenger Vessel or VLCC and call up asking if there is a berth available( Force Majure excepted).

    Similarly I do not know many ex Merchant Captains who have had the hands on face to face dealings with suppliers/ trades people you will encounter on a yacht when they first enter the yachting trade.

    How many times have you been on a Merchant Ship about to enter port and had the charterer ask you to steam somehwere else, book a table at a restaurant that has been booked out for months and make sure that all his guestS who were to be collected at the friat place the next morning are ferried to the new destination ASAP?
  13. world citizen

    world citizen New Member

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    Most likely you have not read or you have not understood my reply.:rolleyes: I cannot remember anywhere making comparisons between yachting and merchant navy or implying that somebody is superior from the other as you did. My only objection was the feeling i received that we are not suitable for the job, and honestly I posted my opinion. I am in the yachting industry and believe me I know quite well what a demanding owner means and what it takes trying to explain that the Saint Martin Bridge opens in regular hours or with one hour notice, while your guests wants to go to the lagoon in 5 minutes.

    Regarding your other points I would rather not answer, whoever is familiar with the subject can understand and make its own conclusions.

    Best Regards, :)
  14. airship

    airship Senior Member

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    world citizen, I would recommend that you read again my previous contributions to this thread. You might correctly accuse me of some provocation, you cannot really accuse me of disrespecting your profession (or the "industry") especially as you haven't been considerate enough to inform me (or the others reading this forum) of what it is you actually do, so that I can properly show my disrespect, if any was indeed forthcoming... :confused:

    On the other hand, I would never ever envisage taking someone off a Very Large Crude Carrier and installing them directly as skipper onto any motor yacht. Though I can confirm that this is exactly what some Greek companies (who had their feet both in the merchant marine and private yachting sectors) attempted to do in recent times with somewhat mixed results to say the least.

    Firstly, any yachts around today that are equipped with DP systems must be as rare as VLCCs with double-hulls and possessed of Ice Class 1A classification...

    Secondly, I write having personally watched an experienced Greek master mariner on his first-ever outing after "transfer" from the command after many years aboard a large container ship to a modest 30m displacement motor yacht at the behest of the shipping company. This was in the Larnaca Marina. Having 2 motors each producing in excess of 450HP is small cheese to what you'd find on a large commercial vessel. The difference is in how you use it. For this particular master mariner, his experience lead him to believe that it was entirely in order that he engage the throttles "ahead" whilst leaving his stern-to berth and rely solely on the rudders for steerage and control...?! Needless to say, it was by sheer luck and wits that he managed to come to an "emergency stop" in the best tradition of the term, literally 2-3 metres away from the very solid breakwater surrounding the marina... :rolleyes: Like far too many ex. MM officers with little experience of "small-boat" handling...?! Ask any deckie off a large yacht with fresh MM officers where it simply has to be one of these officers who drives the tenders - everytime they drive the tender for 10 minutes, it takes us half a day to fix the dents?! :p

    Lastly, I personally deal with a number of Greek-run yachts and have done so for very many years. All of them are invariably headed by experienced and competent master mariners. That is to say, competent for yacht service. In the same way as you wouldn't expect a yacht skipper to just jump aboard a VLCC and conduct the ship from the Gulf into say Southampton (though when you think about it, why couldn't they - with tugs in assistance at each end - if a yacht can stop on a dime, the VLCC would just need several hundred's of thousands of dimes worth. Unfortunetly, yacht skippers wouldn't do it for the money some of these MMs accept... :D ), you can't expect everyone to simply walk off a commercial ship and assume that they have the necessary competence in all the facets required to running a private yacht successfully just like that.

    But what you do have in the yachting industry today is a huge polarisation in earnings. On the one side, you have competent yachties and ex. MMs earning quite generous wages. On the other, there are equally competent mariners from developing nations where the skipper is lucky to earn what a deckie with 2 years' experience earns on another yacht. The difference often depends on who "sold" the yacht (or the idea of one) in the first place... :mad:
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Worldcitizen I suggest you re read your own post before going off course.

    I was simply trying to point out to you that there are differences between the two industries that go further than the tonnage and cargo.

    There are many fine yacht crew who are ex Merchant Navy from a variety of nationalities. There are also a number who did not make the grade.
  16. world citizen

    world citizen New Member

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    Dear Airship,

    Thanks for your reply.:) It is really difficult for me as well to understand your profile. Regarding mine obviously and as is explicitly stated in my profile is a MM currently a building captain for a quite two big project.
    In my opinion by judging a bad manoeuvre of one individual, which can happen to any of us who are entitled to hold throttles, is not prudent. :( If, as you say, have worked with Greek Captains, and by any change you will visit Greece please check how some captains manoeuvre the coastal ships to the islands.
    Overall, we do say the same think but with different words. As you can see in my thread I myself denote that the two industries have nothing in common but sea.
    Closing the post because I think that we are drifting of the original thread off Teena I want to mention that you are touching a huge subject regarding “opportunity crews” who have an immediate effect in safety, operation, and development of both industries.

    P.S in case that you missed the detail a VLCC is more than…..3000GT (Just joking ):D