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I'm under contract to buy a 2011 Azimut 58...

Discussion in 'Azimut Yacht' started by makesumwake2, Jan 5, 2020.

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  1. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Hatteras, Viking, and Westport.

    As to Hatteras and Viking since you mentioned them, they're not perfect, but when they do have problems, they address them properly. Their customers do not deal with a small problem for months or even years. It gets fixed. In the worst of cases, they've even let the customer trade back and get another boat. I've never owned a Hatteras or Viking, but I trust both companies and I believe both stand behind their warranties.
  2. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    thats how i see it also.
    in miami, the azimuts charter very well.
    im trying to put a price on every pro and con, and then plug the numbers into a spreadsheet and see what decision makes me the most money in the long run.
    charter clients in miami want bling and looks and nice Instagram photos. they couldn't care less about the build quality of the boat or what engines it has.
    the charter revenue of the 2011 azimut im trying to buy, which can be from 150k to 300k/yr depending on how much one wants to work it and how established one is in the charter market, can easily pay for the issues to be encountered by running azimut... and then some.
  3. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Neither do I - in fact, I already said I never bought any.

    But, and it's a big but, from a business viewpoint, would you buy the idea that one company (in any industry, mind, not just boatbuilding) can be the one that survives better than anyone else the worse recession ever, building and selling the "problem childs" products of its own industrial sector?!?

    Ref. your two names, with all due respect, they are not even playing in the same league as Azimut Group.
    Though obviously that has absolutely nothing to see with what boat yourself (or also myself, for that matter) would rather buy.
  4. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    For many US builders, the 10% Luxury Tax recession around 1991 was worse.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    And, getting parts. Not to mention Azimuts choice of fabrics on the interior walls and rest of interior that don't belong on a yacht in a humid environment. There is no quality control on the entire boats electrical, Benetti is the same, they have over 7 different marine electrical companies, wiring entire yachts however they see fit and none of them follow the schematics or even use the same equipment. I ran a boat with one of their delivery Captains from the factory, the stuff he told me was mind boggling explains all of the issues we see on them.

    I ran a new 55' Flybridge recently. They mounted the entire breaker panel horizontally in a well, with a hinged hatch the lifted up under the bar!!!! Anything spilled on the bar would leak inside the well the breaker panel is in and onto and down all of the AC breakers for the entire boat. I could not believe how horrible this location was to install a breaker panel.
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    You're right!!! Those two names build the highest quality production yachts in the world in their size range!!!!!!!!
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Every major boatbuilder I know survived the recession. Otherwise they wouldn't be here. Nothing unique about Azimut Benetti doing so. Please find some other quality of Azimut to admire other than that they're still alive.

    Paolo Vitelli has done an incredible job. Benetti, on the other hand, couldn't have survived in the 80's without being acquired. I've even seen their incredible facility in Viareggio. Very impressive. I just believe they've allowed their service to be severely compromised in the US. The moves they made gained them volume but at the expense of their reputation.
  8. f3504x4ps

    f3504x4ps Member

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    Sounds like the seller needs to get out from under the boat ASAP, bank foreclosure? Sounds like you should walk away if the seller is trying to bully you into a fast close. To me it seems like an issue with the boat and a reason for fast close. As of today the weather around her ( I live in Chicago has been unseasonably warm and no snow ) has been from 60deg F to 35deg F. If the boats in heated building is it even accessible with out move mutiple other boats to get it out. Up here most marina's say its not moving till end of April or May, so verify with yard if it is even possible to move it? The cost to get the building back to the current indoor temp may be a big reason it's not going anywhere till spring. I know lake is not frozen but does the river access iced over?? Best of luck.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yeah, of course Ferretti, Sunseeker etc. are still around as brands, but in my post #38, I used "survive" in a broader sense (without going bankrupt or resorting to some turnaround specialist), implying that many which formally survived had to be bailed out, one way or another.
    In this sense, I can't think of any large production European boatbuilder who wasn't forced to resort to that to survive, bar Azimut.
    Well, and Bénéteau of course, which in fact survived also thanks to their very successful luxury brand Montecarlo, which was established out of the blue, stealing a lot of industrial experience from Azimut.
    But that was already done as a reaction to the recession, sort of. And it's a very different story, anyway.
    Considering this perspective, can you name any other?

    Why do you ask me?
    What I'm saying is that many folks kept preferring their "problem childs" products to others which most of us would consider "better", and this is a fact. Those are the folks you should ask.
    Of course, you are fully entitled to not consider that something worth admiring, but from my viewpoint (which ain't restricted to boats), it is.
  10. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Now, that's weird. They normally use specialized lorry drivers, to deliver boats from their factory.
    Was the owner the same guy who bought a Uniesse 55 with Arneson drives at a time when the builder was not an ongoing concern anymore? :D
  11. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    And where did I say they don't built good boats, exactly?

    Regardless, since you mention their size range, let me ask you one thing.
    Both Hatteras and Viking sold plenty of boats in the 50' to 60' range, throughout their history.
    So, I guess you must have been onboard several of them.
    Have you ever seen one structurally built with four fully watertight compartments, plus integral fuel and water tanks moulded with the hull, which for all intent and purposes work as two other w/tight compartments, in the event of a grounding that cracks the hull bottom open?
  12. makesumwake2

    makesumwake2 Member

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    the boat is sold by marinemax, a huge name in the industry. im not sure marinemax would want to risk their reputation with shady practices like this?
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I generally run around 150 different boats/yachts each and every year, at least half or more of them new, sometimes as many as 7 in one day. No, he was not the 55' Uniesse owner, and the only reason he bought a Uniesse over a Magnum 60' or Pershing, is he had a custom lift and boat house in the Carribbean and neither of those two would fit into it, or the magnum did but didn't have any interior space.

    Yes, the Captain worked directly for the factory and was on board. From what I understood, after the boat was sold he would sometimes stay on the yacht, with the owner for 4-6 weeks for orientation/hand over purposes. He delivers many of them and was not a fan of the factory. They never fixed the design issues he would tell them about. When the boat is launched, they throw 40 guys on it in a mad dash to fix/finish everything and get it out of there. Yacht was quite a bit larger than the one we're talking about here. Was shipped here from the Med and was awaiting another ship and was shipping to Pacific side. The factory delivery Captain didn't know the waters here, and the shipping company who I've run 100s of yachts for as well as doing loadings and unloadings, hired me and paid me to run it as that is part of the contract as the shipping got bumped from Port Everglades to Palm Beach. It was rough and I had to take the Intracoastal waterway.

    I don't know of the Hatteras or Viking with the bulkheads that you're speaking of offhand. However, Hatteras has been doing molded in fuel tanks and water tanks into the hull on almost every yacht they've ever built out of Fiberglass and they don't have issues in the 60 +/- years they've been doing them. One of the only/few exceptions is the current 60' MY has an aluminum fuel tank. That being said, Azimut has had some real problems on the 68' with fuel tanks cracking and leaking. A friend of mine deals with one of those and they've tried to fix the tanks in the boat several times and still leaking diesel.
  14. RB480

    RB480 Senior Member

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    I know where the boat is stored and have seen the boat a handful of times in passing. Always looks clean and the sellers have a pretty good history in boating.

    If it's where I think it's stored, she's in a private building in a pretty exclusive marina where owners have private storage stalls and it can be launched pretty much any time. There is a bridge that would preclude access to the lake if the water levels are up like they have been this year. The bridge tender is normally not on duty during the winter months since the inland lake and river system where the boat is stored is purely a pleasure boating area.

    At this time, it's definitely not impossible to get the boat down the river still to the Gulf. I have taken boats down in December with some fuel stops planned in advance by truck or local marinas that are still working. She just needs to get under the 19' bridge in Illinois. Once you're in Kentucky you shouldn't have any issue at all the entire remainder of the trip finding marinas or fuel.

    Where theres a will, theres a way!
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The air draft might preclude it from going down the Illinois river system. You have to be 19'2 air draft to go that way, versus 20'6 to go East and down the Erie Canal. That 16" makes a major difference on a lot of MYs. I know a new style 50' Azimut FB will make it the East route through Erie canal without taking anything off of the hard top.

    Good information for the buyer. Can the boat be run at cruise in the inland lake system where she is at without dealing with the bridge?
  16. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Wear and tear on day charter boats is pretty high and from my experience the “quality” of the average day charter guests in Miami is rapidly declining... we did day charters for about 10 years with a Johnson 70 I used to run and don’t do them anymore with the lazzara 84 I run now. We only do weekly charters mostly in the Exumas

    58 isn’t that big for day chartering and there is a lot of competition nowadays. I don’t think guests care about the brand of the boat... yes it needs to be “flashy” but whether it s a mutt, a ferretti, prestige or whatever it s all the same to them. If anything to be successful the boat needs to be reliable as you can’t afford to cancel a charter because of an issue.

    I think the $300k revenue is VERY optimistic ...
  17. KoffeeCruising

    KoffeeCruising Member

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    Chartering....
    Not to mention to legally charter an Uninspected Vessel, you can only carry 6 passengers with a licensed Capitan at the helm. That is assuming you can get an Insurance company to issue you a Charter Policy.

    Getting my 54’ Flybridge insured was tough my first year since it was my first large boat and I didn’t have an OUPV 6-pack license. I finally got GEICO/BoatUS. After 200 hours and 65 travel days in first year with no incidents and earning my OUPV license, I was able to get a charter policy - but strictly limited to 6 passengers.

    There is a whole thread on YF about illegal charter crackdown you should read up on. Basing your purchase decision on potential charter revenue is optimistic. Do your spreadsheet with your charter goal- then run at 25% or 0% of that goal and see if it makes fiscal sense.

    My purchase agreement gave me rights to walk away if there was anything I didn’t like after the survey- and before closing; and every survey will turn up something. That may be your get out of jail free card.

    I wish you good luck- but I see a lot of “red sky at morning” traits in this process.
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'm sorry but I'm still doing a double take over Marine Max risking their reputation. That ship sailed long ago.
  19. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    You missed the point of my previous comment.
    You said that you ran a boat "from the factory", while their main production site is 100+ miles inland... o_O
    At least up to 24m, as I recall. Larger Azimuts and Benettis are built in other plants, obviously - as in Viareggio, which OB mentioned, but not only.
    No worries anyway, mine was just a joke, sort of.

    That's understandable, because I don't think there are any.
    Actually, Hatt and Vik are far from being alone in this, since most production boat up to 60' (and many also well above!) are only built with 2, or at best 3 fully w/tight compartments.
    In fact, I'd be curious to hear if anyone can name a single one with four in that size range (leaving ocean going trawlers aside), in spite of the fact that a few of them do exist.

    Besides, as I recall (but I'm happy to stand corrected if anyone knows better), the Hatt's moulded tanks are built from the hull bottom up to the deck floor. Nothing wrong that solution, but while it does qualify as structural tanks construction, whose main advantage is a somewhat stiffer hull for any given weight, it does nothing to improve also safety. This is where the type of construction that I mentioned stands out, where on top of a stronger and stiffer hull along most of its length, each tank built as moulded double bottom works out also as an additional w/tight compartment.

    Anyhow, enough with o/t.
    The reason why I mentioned a couple of peculiar points where there are (very few, admittedly) boats built better than both Hatteras and Vikings is that you called their products "the highest quality production yachts in the world in their size range".
    Which is, yet again, a sweeping generalization.
    A few boaters (myself included) rate an additional w/tight compartment and a stronger hull above the possibility to control the Airco or whatever from an iPhone.
    Some might like these bling features, which by the way were introduced also in Hatteras boats, among many others.
    Other boaters might as well like Azimuts because they don't have to pay extra for the maneuvering winches (as you have to in the Hatt M90 - hellooooo, R U kidding me!?!), or for whatever other reasons.

    Truth is, at the end of the day, that "highest quality" is a purely theoretical concept, which is impossible to apply scientifically.
    Different strokes for different folks, THIS is all that really matters, with boats.
    As well as with any other industrial consumer product, in fact.
  20. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    In fairness, the agreement that the OP posted specifies...
    Subject to: Trial Run; Marine Survey; Mechanical Inspection. Buyer's Inspection.
    And the way I read it, if the buyer simply doesn't like the boat upon inspection, that's already a good enough reason to call the deal off.
    Happy to learn if the commonly accepted interpretation in the US is different, though.