Click for Burger Click for Walker Click for Mulder Click for Glendinning Click for Comfort

Another electronic helm system fails to work? (video)

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by johnnry, Nov 28, 2019.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. johnnry

    johnnry Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    66
    Location:
    Babylon ny
    I dont know how any captain could ever be 100% confidant without mechanical cables...ie:
    Watch "M/Y Safira in Dania Cut-Off Canal on Nov. 23, 2019. Video by Erjo Junatas" on YouTube
  2. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,111
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Amazing that the helmsman doesn't seem to have used the horn.
    A catastrophic electrical fault, possibly?
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,647
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    That's a couple of events that nobody has bothered the horn.
    Hummm??
    On another site report; New equipment heading out for sea trials.
    UN- shielded signal wires were a concern with this failure.
  4. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    The triton has an article on this accident incl an interview with the captain. The pods not only failed to respond but were acting erratically

    shielding was indeed mentioned
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,432
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Try finding the horn on most dashes...…..I run a lot of different boats......and usually the horn is a black button on a long lengthy row of buttons that isn't easy to find in a hurry. I'm guessing this Captain had his hands full and the catamaran was moored at a dock.

    I've had mechanical cables fail also...….one throttle cable end fell off at cruise and the engine went to idle speed and the boat carved a very tight turn on autopilot in the ocean...….another one fell off of the gear and was stuck in gear...….and I had another one snap on another gear, only able to do forward and neutral...….
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Cables usually give you some warning before failure, of course you need to “know” the boat to feel the difference. A little stiff, a little loose, a little play... they almost never fail suddenly. It s difficult to feel when you just stepped on the boat though
  7. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,111
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Agreed - it's no coincidence that in my boat I deliberately preferred to have the latest mechanical engines with cable levers, rather than some early electronic engines+throttles.
    On the other hand, I don't think you have such choice anymore, with any emission-compliant modern engine. Not to my knowledge, at least.

    Ref. horn command being hard to find and the catamaran being docked, well, it's a good thing that nobody was crushed in a cabin of that sailboat while having a nap.
    The Safira captain would have had a hard time explaining to a court that he didn't bother checking in advance where the horn control is!
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,432
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    It's not checking where the horn is, it's being able to find it when SHTF. I'm guessing the Captain was pre-occupied with trying to regain control, which he/she apparently did. On a yacht the size of Safira, cable controls are simply not an option due to the length of runs. So you're left with air, hydraulic, or electronic. I've had failures with all of them, including cable.
  9. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,647
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Despite no horns or know where the freaking button is, My next questions are"
    Why not shut them (Mains) down?
    Use bow thruster to steer away from targets?
    Real world dock side test were not preformed (everything on and make sure it works)?
    (Even red-necks from my swamp know this)..
    WTF, why would you knot use shielded data cable? A gazillion bux boat, going to save a few freaking cents???
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,118
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    Nobody know how they will react in that situation. It s one thing to have the engines or gears not responding but when they respond in a different way it can be very confusing prompting the captain to wonder if he made a mistake and try to solve it. It s not like there is a big flashing sign saying control malfunction.

    I had a similar issue after my repower. We tested the lower helm controls cables at the dock but then the next time I docked from the FB. One of the gear cables was reversed. Confusing as hell. You question yourself, you try to correct. When just a few feet from other boats, it can be challenging.
  11. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,111
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Mmm... The (very experienced, allegedly) Captain declared in that Triton article that the azipods began malfunctioning well before what can be seen in the video.
    And he pretends that himself and the whole crew "got calmer and calmer" throughout the duration of the accident.
    I maintain that not thinking to (let alone not knowing how to!) use the horn in a situation potentially so dangerous for the boat they were clearly going to crash into is less than professional to say the least.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,647
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Pascal does have a small (very small) point (#10) that you question your self and sometimes reactions are confused and delayed.

    I remember pushing a boat for buyers sea trials.
    The fly bridge controls worked like a champ all day. While returning and waiting for the Ortega draw bridge to open up, rain started pouring down, all went below to the lower station.
    Bridge opens, engage forward clutches and I start to correct the rudders. The more correction needed, the more I turned and kept making it worse. I knew something was wrong as I moved the wheel the second time. My brain still took a half second more to figure it out.
    My hands immediately went for the clutches, reversed the turn, corrected the rudders and clutched thru the bridge like I knew what I was doing.
    The broker was the only one that realized something was wrong. Later he figured out the issue; Hynautic head was serviced correcting a leak. SFBs (not my shops) put the P & S hoses on bass ackwards.

    This all happened in 25 to 30 feet.
    The pod skipper looked like he had a few hundred feet.

    I found that story on the Triton; Lil career damage control and CYA in play there. Not sure if I would have gone to the media like that.

    Big item that we need to realize after a few of these events; nobody was hurt, this time..
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,432
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    And what exactly would have blowing the horn have done???? You keep harping on why the horn wasn't blown. The entire incident occurred within 20 seconds, that's not a lot of time to react. When stuff really hits the fan, it takes some time to process what is going on, then decide or think of what/how to react to it. First order of business for any Captain would be to try to re-establish control, which the Captain did as at the end of the video you can see the port engine in full speed reverse, by both the exhaust and the way the vessel is heeled over. I know that marina extensively where the sailboats are moored. I manage a yacht in that marina since 2014 and have also had multiple boats hauled out there for many years prior to that. Those boats are at that dock for storage. Could there have been people on board, yes, but it's not as likely. IF there were people on board, would they have paid any attention to the horn and even came outside or gotten off in time? I was just at that marina a week ago and blew a very loud horn on the yacht I manage for 5 seconds as part of my monthly service check where I exercise everything. The boat yard also has a horn that blows at various times to signal break time, lunch time, etc.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2004
    Messages:
    12,647
    Location:
    Satsuma, FL
    Since no body was hurt, a horn may have done nothing,, again.
    The captain did have his mind on other things but if people were on that snailbote, a horn blast may of helped them look up and brace them selves.

    A horn should be near automatically at your fingers to warn others for run away boats, MOB, fire, flotsam or landings.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  15. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,111
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Harping on? Why should I, when I never heard of that boat and his Captain before?
    I'm just saying it as I see it - call me naive, but I would rather stick to colregs as much as I can.
    Btw, your assumption that the entire incident occurred within 20 secs is very wrong, according to the Captain's own declarations.
    Did you bother checking out his CYA (as Capt Ralph nicely puts it!) interview on Triton?
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,432
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I know that area extremely well, it is my backyard so to speak. I do not know the boat, nor the Captain at all. From where the video started, the only additional area that is navigable for that size yacht is an additional 50-100 yards period, if it came out of Marine Max's yard (which it's too big for) and you cannot turn the vessel around there, so it must've come out of Directors yard, which is literally about where the video started, maybe 50 yards west, the initial impact of the black sailboat was at 25 seconds from the start of the video the catamaran at about 30 seconds.

    As proven by the FAA in that Scully airplane incident where he landed a 737 in the Hudson river with close to 200 passengers on it. It takes 50 seconds for a human to figure out in their mind, what the issue is, go through the trouble shooting checklist (in their mind) and then decide what action to take. The entire video of this incident is 1:31 minutes but the impacts occurred at 30 seconds or less of the video, and I can assure you given the area, the situation didn't start but seconds earlier.

    While I cannot prove it, given the angle of the video, I am guessing a horn was sounded at the beginning, because why else would someone start videoing from the angle the video is taken. It's not an area where people would start videoing, but this is just a guess on my part.

    In a situation like this, you never know what the Captain is seeing in front of him, in the way or whatever. I crossed from the Bahamas once about 10 years ago in 6'+ seas in a 70' azimut with an open flybridge, ran the boat across from the lower station. Wind blowing 20-25 knots. Got into Port Everglades on a busy Saturday, incoming tide towards the bridge, and about 300 yards from the 17th Street bridge, put the controls in neutral, went to the flybridge, accessed the station, put them both in gear.....all was fine, went to neutral because someone was going very slow in front of me...…..Port engine went into forward at 1300 RPMS and the boat started really accelerating as I was trying to slow it down. At this moment in time, I had to see what my options were when it came to open space, not hitting the bridge, not hitting the boat in front of me going through the bridge, what space/boats I had on my sides and stern. If I killed the engine, I couldn't have stopped the boat before hitting the boat in front of me, and would have spun the boat sideways using only starboard reverse and hit the bridge. I ended up turning the wheel hard to starboard, gave it about full throttle on starboard reverse and spin the boat and started heading back out of the Port, shut the port engine down, shut everything down, determined the FB station was shorted from the water, and ran it to the dock from the lower station. Bottom line is, not all Captains are excellent at handling a yacht, not all Captains know the yacht they're on that well, not all Captains are as lucky, and stuff happens. I've lost engine Control on about 12 yachts over the years, luckily none of them resulting in any damage. In a situation like this, not knowing exactly what the pods on this yacht were doing, or acting, it's hard to say what anyone else could've done, should've done, or had time to do. And, even the Captains recollection can be very skewed without them knowing it.

    For example, I had a mate have a massive heart attack at a marina in Key West last year. I performed CPR for 10 minutes on the deck of a SF, lot of other crew standing around on other yachts in the marina. Dockmaster was talking to him when he dropped, alerted me (inside the boat) and called the Paramedics instantly.....I checked vitals,there were none, I started cpr, a little while later several crew came over and asked if I needed them to jump in and take over cpr, I said no, I'm ok for a little while longer...…..another crew brought an AED and after zapping him once and 20-30 seconds of more cpr, he came to...……the paramedics arrived seconds later....….I thought I had only performed CPR for a minute or two when everyone came over and asked if they could jump in. In my mind after the fact, I truly believe that my mate (69 years old) was only out for 2 minutes. I was informed by everyone afterwards that I was doing chest compressions for over 10 minutes straight, before the aed was attached.
  17. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    Messages:
    1,648
    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    Wow...and excellent job Capt J . Well put.
  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,111
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Apparently, they were neither coming from Marine Max nor Derecktor (or are you meaning anything else by "Directors"?).
    According to the Triton interview with the captain, they came out of Seahaven.
    Not only that, but the malfunctioning started "as they were heading east toward the ICW", so well before the video began, unless I'm missing something.
    Then again, you seem to know better not only than myself, but also than whoever was helming that thing.
    So, who am I to argue?

    Ref. your CPR, it seems to me that comparing the two situations is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
    But well done anyway, your mate must be very grateful.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,432
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I forgot about Seahaven, which is new. It is directly across the canal from Marine Max yard (which you can also see in Seahavens aerial photo of the marina) and as far West as one can go in a yacht that size on that canal. They went all of 150 yards +/- before hitting the sailboat. Look at the bottom left photo on Seahavens website. The sailboat the hit was directly across from the large yacht on the canal with the bow facing the ocean. Something alerted someone to start filming it, which my guess is a horn, because the video person started the video before the bow even entered his view. Either way it happened very quickly and in a very short distance. My guess is the Captain pulled out of Seahaven, got bow facing east and stopped from a wing station, went to another station and activated it, and that's when everything hit the fan. I do not know anything for certain, but just speculation based upon my intimate knowledge of where it happened. I manage the yacht with the blue hull seen in the background right after the catamaran breaks free and it's been docked there since April 2014.

    https://seahavenmarina.com/
  20. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2015
    Messages:
    969
    Location:
    Chesapeake Bay
    Would any of you have shut the motors down?