Nordhavn delivery and commissioning issues

Excellent advice 'olderboater' and thank you for your thoughts 'German Yachting'. I made lots of mistakes and was definitely a sucker for the sales pitch. I had the personal attention of Dan Streech the President during the Sales Cycle and I found him to be very charasmatic and credible. I had 2 young sons and all 3 of us were enthralled. Put simply I trusted him but of course as soon as I had signed the contract and paid the large deposit, my account was 'handed over' to people we had never met and they themselves were completely overstretched and you know how the rest of that story goes....... Specifically I failed to understand the financial position of Nordhavn prior to handing over a large sum of money to them and had not even considered Insurance for the build! In hindsight my hull (8606) would have been one of the first built because I see that most of the 86's before mine were cancelled, but of course they did not tell me that and I completely failed to understand their process. I really thought I was buying a 'production boat' with limited ability to customise it and in fact I did not want to customise it beyond customisation of soft furnishing in the interior. The significant parallel that I find with Conconi is the fact that Nordhavn claim their aggressive actions were "necessary to protect jobs and their Company". In my case I dont believe anyone thought that what they were doing was morally right but they claimed it was "necessary" and I think your analogy to a "Boat builder's Ponzi scheme" is the most likely explanation. I doubt they lose any sleep over it, they are not the 'folksy' genuine people that they present themselves to be during the Sales Cycle. Interesting to hear that you believe their Customer Satisfaction is around industry norm. As I embark on the idea of buying a boat again I think I am going to look in the second user market and get a good lawyer and surveyor! Thank you for your advice above which I am sure will be helpful to others as well.

And that is a key point many miss. Nordhavn doesn't build boats, doesn't own a factory. They contract. They don't have the investment in the plants. While their relationship with the yards is long term and solid, PAE still is not the owner of any yard. Nothing wrong with that as Apple doesn't own any of it's Chinese plants either. However, it has put Apple at their mercy many times.

What a setup like this often does involve is a very "thin" legal entity in the sales organization you're dealing with. They don't have hundreds of millions of dollars of assets. You picture a monstrous organization with huge factories and offices around the world but then those factories are owned by others and often some of the offices are only affiliates.

This is normal for today's world in most industries. I use to get into arguments over companies being called manufacturers in soft goods like apparel and linens and I'd point out that many were just distributors as they didn't own a single factory and didn't manufacture anything. It simply was imported into their warehouse or distribution center.

Know and understand who you're dealing with.

We're contemplating our next boat, actually always contemplating but getting closer to possibly doing something. We visited a factory in Italy recently and spoke with the key people there. We saw their capabilities first hand and while I'm definitely not an expert on boat building, I am on manufacturing and know a well run facility from a poorly run one.

Good advice to know who you are dealing with. Use offshore builders and market here, then disappear or do not back their build. Would need to be careful when buying new.

It's not just offshore builders. I know of people contracting with domestic builders that were in serious financial trouble. Just a little bit of research and they could have avoided the disaster they faced. The information was all out there. I guess I understand those who weren't in business, but when I see someone who has successfully run a large business for years and yet do no due diligence, it is hard to understand, but they just fall in love with a vision of a boat and don't do their homework. I think also doing one's homework, allows one to better have reasonable expectations. Even among trustworthy builders, they all do things differently. As an example, there are two major builders in the UK. One has many times more customer complaints than the other over the past few years. Even among Dutch builders you'll find one that was in deep trouble, had an ownership change, and paints a pretty picture now but how strong are they really financially? What do you know about the new ownership?

You find a builder struggling to stay alive and you might get what you believe is a good deal, but you may never see a finished boat unless you're willing to buy the builder. On the other hand, I've dealt with businesses struggling to survive, but completely honest with me, and found ways to work with them and protect myself.

You must think of purchasing a large boat as a business transaction.

Definitely equal to a business transaction. Gets even more risky when you have a boat marketing company with a line of boats working with the buyers money and contracting out to a builder. A lot of sharks in those waters.

Once took a plaintiff months in court battling a builder that was trying to say he was suing the wrong parties. Then they come to find out that the entity name used on the contract, didn't actually exist.

When you think it can't get any worse.....guess what!

Can get much worse. Lose every dollar you pay and never get a boat. It happens.