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Gunboat 66 – the ultimate fast cruiser?

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by brian eiland, Mar 26, 2016.

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  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I haven't watch this video in some time now, but it really is quite good. Even non-sailors should have a look.


    This vessel, or style of vessel, has to be one of the top contenders as world cruiser. Its a shame that they find themselves in financially difficulties at the moment.
    Brian
  2. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Guess there are just not that many sailors on this forum?
    Brian
  3. lobo

    lobo Senior Member

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    Or you have put up that question on too many other forums already?
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Or we find everything to do with Gunboat distasteful and don't find their financial difficulties a shame for them although do for their customers and employees.
  5. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Put it on a number of other forums as often some folks don't read other forums.
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    What is so 'distasteful' about them?
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The way they ran their business. Their failure to oversea adequately their production. The boats they delivered that were complete disasters. The buyers who were out their money and had nothing to show for it. Their abandonment of those customers and of their employees. All those things. I don't argue they may be great sailors, I don't know that aspect. But the way they ran their business was horrible and many were hurt by it.

    So, that's what I find distasteful and why I am not interested in their boat.

    I wouldn't have posted in this thread but you wanted reasons no one was responding. I'm sure others have their own reasons. Once I see "Gunboat" in the thread title, I'm done.

    What is your relationship with them that leads you to posting information on them on multiple forums? Just an admirer?
  8. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Where did you get this info that 'boats were completed disasters'?

    Can you name any buyers who were out their money?

    I'm thinking you are running on the rumor mill stuff.

    For a large number of years I have been involved with the design and promotion of multihull sailboats, large and small. I am particularly fond of 'motorsailers' for world cruising (both multihull and monohull), and feel that the large catamaran makes for a particularly good form for a MotorSailer...
    http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

    ....even a gamefishing design
    http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/gamefishing-for-sail-under-sail-and-power.1548/


    I was not always in agreement with what Gunboat was doing, but I respected their tenacity to push the limits in limited market, production MULTIHULL vessel. Having spent some considerable times in Asia, and researched the building of some vessels there for a couple of potential clients, I would have advised them to be extremely cautious about doing business there (and in Thailand). There are a number of other companies that have looked longingly hard at the cheap labor rates there, and the huge potential markets there, yet have not fared well with implementing their goals,...including some major automobile manufacturers.

    As I understand it there were a few warranty problems that some buyers of the Chinese vessels sought to have fixed, but the Chinese firm did not do them, or did not do them correctly, and thus the primary firm Gunboat had to step in and help resolve. That created extra financial burden on the parent company, and friction with the Chinese builder,...and subsequently like so many of these deals with Chinese firms go, the Chinese entity just decided to COPY the thing and go on their way.

  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    And Gunboat put all the blame on the Chinese firm. Those are the boats I labeled disasters as did Gunboat. Gunboat didn't properly manage or supervise the production. To my knowledge those boats have not been repaired and there is doubt that one or more can be made acceptable and safe. And my information is far more than rumor mill. If you want details, just find and look at the various court documents. I haven't googled today, but have previously seen details of the issues. Just read Gunboat's suit against the yard and the yard's suit against them. Regardless of which is right, the customers received very bad boat.

    Gunboat is out of business because they sold and delivered very bad boats which they purchased from Chinese yards. Plain. Simple. The owners are stuck with these boats. Can't really sell them since they know of the problems. Can't get any help from Gunboat and can't get their money back. I don't respect people who do business like this. You make it sound like these were minor warranty issues but they were major.

    Rainmaker didn't exactly come to a good end either. Gunboat could no longer make sales because the word was out. By bankruptcy, they are able to disavow all further obligations. Even by their own words, everything they did their last two years turned to a "perfect storm" of circumstances, mistakes and disputes.

    By Gunboat's own admission and filings they owe people more than $10 million. Those are real dollars people will never see and that's not reflecting those who own boats that have zero market value now.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  10. lobo

    lobo Senior Member

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    When they ran from Cape Town for China one night, their first bancruptcy left behind a number of unfinished yachts and a complete mess, that cost a lot of people a lot of money, incl local worker and trades. One case is still pending in RI courts, to my knowledge. Not enough publicity at that time unfortunately, to avoid the remake in the US a few years later.

    A few weeks before they folded again in NC in November '15, they took a $1.5m deposit for a new build from an unsuspecting Swiss buyer. Their current 2nd bancruptcy is transparent, look up the bancruptcy court files, they show all names, amounts, status of yachts and contracts, etc.

    Those involved might find stronger words than distasteful ...
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I thought I was being mild in using "distasteful".
  12. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Was a sales guy for a dealer of trawlers built in Suzhou, PRC in the mid-2000s.
    Boats were overall robust, but plagued with the typical warranty stuff such as mis-aligned struts, poorly-bedded deck hardware...the kinds of things that require serious roebucks to attain client satisfaction. This killed the Dealer-Builder relationship. "Ah, Joe, you buy next boat, we deduct repair costs". Great biz model!

    Haier reefers = garbage.
    PRC drywall= ditto.
    PRC baby food, pet food, et. al. = ditto.

    Would anyone on this forum buy a Chinese automobile and expect QUALITY?

    If/when war comes to the Spratlys, are they gonna be bringing a tomahawk to the Cruise Missile Fight?

    Hey, Carl! Kudos for a very cool Avatar.
    SALUTE!
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2016
  13. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Do you know for a fact that they 'ran' from SA? I have heard some of those rumors, but I do not know any facts. Have you seen any such court filings that might help illuminate the details?

    I seem to recall that they were continuing to manufacture at both locations when they first sought out to build some other models in China.

    BTW, SA production can have some production problems as well,...a highly mobile work force that skips around between manufacturers. This was documented in an article in Professional Boatbuilder. This very mobile workforce can be more of a problem with hi-tech layup details with carbon fiber type materials.
  14. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Regrettably I do not presently have the time to look thru these various court filings on both sides. And I might be a little leery of accepting these as all fact, ....all lawyers have a tendency to exaggerate the claims,...on both sides.

    So we might say wait until the court cases get heard and decisions rendered. BUT, in the case of China I would not hold my breath that anything of consequence would come from their court systems.

    I don't know that the Chinese problem(s) were their total demise?

    Can you name a few of the MAJOR warranty issues?

    The Rainmaker affair was an unfortunate deal. They were in a hurry to get to the islands, and likely should not left out of port as that frontal passage was arriving. I did the same thing back in the late seventies in a hurry to get to the islands in time for new years parties,...hit a very nasty storm that I thought I could run downwind with,...did so but it was hairy.

    I also do not think that their new 55 design is a great offshore boat design,...perhaps oversold that aspect. I termed that design a picnic/weekender design...
    http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/weekender-picnic-powercat.13966/page-2

    Regrettably there are a great number of companies that get into trouble along their way, and have to claim chapter 7 or 11 to allow themselves some 'breathing room' to reorganize.

    Added to those 'perfect storm' circumstances you listed above, you probably should have included the huge economic downturn in our economy sense 2008 and how that contributed to a BIG turndown in the boating industry as a whole. Likely you could find a significant number of boat manufactures that have gone out of business over the past 6-8 years.
  15. lobo

    lobo Senior Member

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    They never built in both locations, and left 4 unfinished hulls behind in SA. Google brings up quite a lot of info and links to other forums providing more detail. Status as I read it:
    one 66 was shipped to the US West Coast to be finished at Westerley in Anaheim and is subject to the court case in RI
    one 78 was years later shipped to NC to be finished there by Gunboat, the owner is now in his second Gunboat bankruptcy with his boat
    two more 66 were finished locally in SA by other yards

    the current bankruptcy case and boat history is quite well documented on sailing anarchy - caveat emptor ...
  16. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I can not imagine that they totally shut down SA, then went off to Chine to build new molds to continue their business. I rather imagine they were doing some business concurrently while new molds and business was being set up in China.

    I can well imagine that a decision was made to look at China as an a potential second building location for their new models, and mold work was commenced while they were still completing vessels in SA. Then likely the situation was looking rosy in China, so why not move all construction there. So close down SA.

    half-way documented here
    http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?3910-Gunboat-Closed/page2

    I don't trust a lot of what I read on that forum :rolleyes:
  17. lobo

    lobo Senior Member

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  18. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    And, apparently there is an abundance of lead in China which they are desperately trying to get rid of. I suspect this because so much of what they export seems to be loaded up with it.
  19. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    For very good reasons, the old Roman principle "caveat emptor" does not apply to non commercial customers within the EU and most other civilized countries. A company leaving clients behind like discribed above should be out of market ASAP and their COs penalized. That is fraud.

    Brian, as You know, I am a big friend of large and fast multihulls. Even if I may get seasick by their corksrew type movements, their upright and fast sailing behaviour is fascinating for me.

    I have never seen a Gunboat personally or have sailed one, therefore I cannot comment their build quality or handling characteristics. At first look, the Gunboat 66 is a nice looking boat and it seems to perform quite nicely. But I do have to question its handling concept and layout.

    On any type of sailboat, the steering and commanding position is in the rear portion of the boat (except on the large schooner Athena, I know, but they have an additional dedicated crew member positioned on every mast, who handles its sails) in order to have a good view towards and over the sails. This front cockpit is the worst position, I can think of, steering a sail boat and handling the lines. Not only the all around visibility is marginal, it is the wettest point on the boat and any larger swell will break that front door and will flood the salon. But most of the green water will leave the salon at the rear end again :).

    Also the Gunboat 66 was for sure not designed as a cruising catamaran for comfortable family cruising, its layout is not my cup of tea. There are many better production catamarans on the market for that purpose. And for racing around the globe, I would take one of those french carbon monsters. But I am to old for 40 NM per hour under sail and 800 NM average per day AND sleeping in a hammock.

    Just my 2 (Euro) cents
  20. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I know what you are saying, but in the business world there are companies that are sometimes given a second chance at recovery by claiming Chapter 11. A number of the US automobile companies were given a new lease on life a few years ago, as well as a few Wall Street companies.

    I'm not a fan of that forward cockpit either, BUT there are a significant number of sailors who appear to like it very much. It was originally a creation of Chris White.

    Agreed, but that video I used to introduce this subject thread did appear to show some reasonable attributes as a cruiser. Perhaps I should have modified this subject thread title to " An Ultimate....Cruiser" rather than "The Ultimate...Cruiser"

    Just because one owns a Ferrari of the sea, does not mean that one has to sail it like that all the time. In fact I think there are a few gunboats out there that are utilized specifically as family cruisers.
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