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Passenger Yacht Code

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Marmot, Aug 24, 2014.

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  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Do we have any members working on a PYC boat now (or one in build) who might have some comments about manning, accommodations, or other aspects of the breed?

    Is the Passenger Yacht Code a good thing for the industry or not in your opinion?

    Comments from engineers are particularly welcome. How do you see this affecting your job?

    Manning looks like it will be a major factor with regard to licensing, does anyone plan on crossing over to commercial certificates?


    PM me if you prefer to remain anonymous.
  2. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    Having not heard about this new breed I decided to have a little read. I am now curious as to what the real intent of the Passenger Yacht Code is, while I see that it may be relevant on very large yacht I am thinking that it could be abused when dealing with true passenger carrying vessels ( 12 pax and above ) that are intended for real commercial.
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    It's a way to legally carry between 13 and 36 passengers on a yacht on an international voyage.

    What kind of abuse did you have in mind?

    It is kind of hard to abuse the PYC code any more than the 12 passenger yacht code might be abused.
  4. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    I do not think that the abuse would come from the yachting arena but more likely from smaller merchant shipping companies. It appears to me that the code is a blurring of the lines and requirements between yachting an merchant shipping. My concern is that in doing so that some unscrupulous merchant ship owner / manager might see a loophole to exploit without due consideration for the potential consequences.

    Personally I miss the days when yachting was essentially unregulated and there was a very clear line between merchant / commercial and yachting. I always felt that the term "commercial yacht" is an oxymoron, it was no doubt the beginning of the blurring of the lines is this just the next step ?
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    There is a move toward "boutique" cruise ships at the opposite end of the spectrum from the mass market atrocities but I don't share your concern. Any potential for abuse would be limited to the charter yacht industry as merchant shipping (including cruise ships) has met the highest standards for nearly a century.

    Merchant ships that carry more than 12 passengers are SOLAS passenger ships. They meet and have been meeting standards for construction and manning that are far beyond anything in the yachting industry.

    The purpose of the PYC is to allow large yachts a route to avoid having to meet those standards.

    That line was crossed when yachts became passenger vessels for hire under the fiction of selling "charters" to "guests." If the MCA had not been forced by STCW to produce an equivalent standard that created the Large Yacht Code and Y limited licenses, commercial yachting would have had to meet the same standards as any other cargo ship carrying up to 12 passengers on an international voyage.

    Though the MCA would (and has) argued strongly that LYC did not water down standards, the growth of yacht sizes and the fact that the Y license is not acceptable for use on any PYC yacht except for one position (a mate) on a very small one sailing (for all practical purposes) in sight of land and not carrying a single passenger, shows that they could no longer maintain that fiction.

    The problem (if there is one) is that yachting, not merchant shipping, benefits from blurring the lines. Merchant ship operators have absolutely nothing to gain by "blurring lines."

    I agree with that. A "guest" is a passenger unless the owner pays the bills. Anyone who pays for the experience of riding a vessel of any kind deserves the same level of protection as someone buying a ticket to ride a cruise ship.

    A private yacht should be just that, private and not available to anyone except by invitation. Let the owner and his guests take their chances at sea and in court. But when a third party buys a "ticket" either at a dockside booth, a travel agent, or through a charter broker, it becomes an entirely different world.
  6. Garry Hartshorn

    Garry Hartshorn Senior Member

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    I am 110% with that.
  7. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I do agree in general with the above.

    But even on a private yacht, never used for charter, as soon as paid crew is involved, regardless of size, certain safety and social standards have to be adhered to. The LY2 / LY3 standard is a good and mandatory guidline for yards and owners and should not be "watered down". Anything above that is SOLAS/IMO/STCW, period. As far as I know, with the LY3 the 3.000 GT has fallen, that takes care of the very large yachts. If somebody wants for example 36 passengers on his yacht, can build a passenger vessel.

    The good old maximum number of passengers / guests border of 12 souls is still a valid figure for yachts and merchant vessels. Anything above that should be concidered a (SOLAS) passenger vessel with all associated rules and regs.

    Pushing the limits with the so called staff cabins is questionable already but those Mini cruise ships or SOLAS Meagayachts are treated as passenger vessels for good reasons. Safety (for all souls onboard) and social standards (for crews) should not be negotiable.

    During the pre container age, we had combined multi purpose cargo / passenger vessels with a max. of 12 passengers. Those passengers were pampered to the highest standards and all cabins were completly booked years in advance, especially on the South America and Asia routes. More passengers would have hampered trading to much. But with the pure box carriers and their special schedules, the service got uninteresting for passengers. Modern cargo ships have only one or two passenger cabins, called the owner cabin.

    But their is a large market for small very luxury cruise ships with megayacht quality. People want to charter a megayacht exclusively but take their large family / entourage plus staff on that charter and tell the captain where to go. This is fully ok but then build a small passenger vessel with all the amenities of a megayacht but with all the safety standards and rules of a SOLAS passenger vessel. The capable yards are just waiting for such orders.

    Below an example of a typical combined Cargo / passenger vessel during the very last years of that aera.

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  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    That is what the PYC is intended to do but through the use of "equivalent" means of compliance with construction, stability, and materials. The MCA seems to have been hoisted with its own petard with regard to manning and that (in my opinion) will almost certainly be a huge barrier to wide acceptance as any PYC yacht (even private) will preclude the use of Y licenses and fall under the full force of MLC standards.

    The typical operating routine of a charter yacht will not meet with much acceptance by merchant mariners who are used to comparatively civilized social conditions and time off.

    It will be very interesting to see what competing maritime authorities come up with to draw registrations away from Red Ensign Group flags. Personally, I think a can of worms has been opened.

    Cape San class? Those were competitors to the Lykes Lines ships on the South American runs that are considered by American merchant mariners as the penultimate in pre-containerization sailing.

    Those boats were wonderful to work on. The officer's accommodations were as good as the passengers and the bar, library, and lounges were magnificent. Alas, those days and the schedules that made them are only memories.
  9. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Cap San Class

    Yes, that is one of the Cap San Class ships, the Cap San Diego. The last one of those beautifull ships is moored in Hamburg as a floating museum and kept in navigable state by a non profit association, which I am a proud member and active sponsor of. We do some cruises with her once or twice a year with volunteer crew members and are allowed to take passengers on limited costal day cruises based on her certification as an historical ship. When moored as a museum ship, visitors can crawl all over the ship without guide from the mast down to shaft tunnel as long as they want during opening hours. The cargo spaces are used for concerts and parties. Tourists love that ship, because upon entering the ship, you feel like in a time shift 40 years back, as everything on the ship is in its original state at her last journeys.

    If you are in Hamburg, just take the chance to visit her. Your entrance fee will help us, keeping her afloat.

    Marmot, I agree, this work around procedure driven by profit reasons, called PYC, will compromize social aspects of crews as far as accomodations, manning, working hours and off duty time is concerned. Safety will in the end be compromized by crew qualification and training, rescue equipment (both in quantity and quality) and passengers might be affected due to lower medical services onboard (no medical doctor required and no ships hospital, just sick bay) and lower requirements in fire resistant interior.

    A large megayacht with 36 guests plus adequate number of crews may have some 70 or 80 or even more souls on board. That is a little cruise ship and not a yacht.

    My country does not recognize any large yacht code at all. A yacht is a pleasure boat below 24 Meters London load line length, period. Anything above that is a ship with paid crew and commercial rules apply, end of story. In this matter, our authorities are less flexible than a railway track. That is the major reason, why German owners of large yachts can not fly their own flag, besides some little VAT and other tax problems :p.

    Finally Marmot, below some nice memories from the good old days:

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  10. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    You should really check facts from fantasy before posting.

    There have been builds even from the yard where you claim to have inside info that are way over 3000 GT and 16 Passengers that run quite comfortably without a SMC, ISM or any other formal control.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    And the typical operating routine of many charter and private yachts is crazy. Yacht crew like commercial crew needs to be fresh to do their job well. I was shocked when we first got interested in larger boats and heard the hours some crew members work.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah, over a decade ago I took a job on a Feadship megayacht. I worked 12-15 hours a day for 2-3 weeks straight, then got flown home for 2 days off and then right back......it was insane and after a month I chose another type of yacht to work on......
  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I am sure about that. Very large yachts like Eclipse are good examples :).

    Maybe my point of view is far too much merchant shipping minded in this matter.

    Why worry about new rules, many yards have piles of metal sheets in their stores, stamped already with a hull number, to build many more yachts according to the previous rules.
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Andrew Weir Yacht Management might have a comment about that.
  15. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    I have been thinking for some time about the manning situation as to a private yacht and the comments hear bear out my concerns. As you all know recently the crew spaces have been "increased" by regulation. I believe if is now 7 sq. meters per crew and private cabins.

    The issue of crew fatigue usually is not an issue for a private yacht as the owner cannot really use it enough to tire out he crew. Except for a long cruise or a live-aboard situation. A week here or there a few times a year is no big deal of suffering by the crew to put up with the owner aboard.

    But going to a commercial use of a yacht it is different... and the crew fatigue issue would be a concern. Also, the smallness of cabins and crew space often makes me cringe... as they are humans and not machines to be put away. What's discussed here certainly bears out some consideration. Really in that kind of situation you need two or three crews to rotate out. In fact, the best would be to have a service vessel following along and rotate out on a shift basis.

    As to HTM09 comments about the olden days in commercial shipping. My grandfather as a Master very much enjoyed the passenger aspect for what he told me.
  16. Milow232

    Milow232 Guest

    Just one question from someone uninitiated. I have been wondering this since quite a while.
    Yachts are allowed to carry max. 12 guests on board unless they are built according to the PYC or registered as commercial ships, correct?

    I am asking because all yachts built Silver yachts seem to accomodate more than 12 guests.
    So let's take as an example their latest yacht, the 77m "Silver Fast" which is somehow allowed to cruise with 18 guests on board.

    Her class: Lloyds+100A1, SSC, Yacht Mono, G6+LMC,UMS, MCA LY2

    For me personally it appears to be a common classification for a commercial superyacht. (If I have read and understood it correctly)

    Can anyone explain to me why she yet can accomodate 18 guests and is not limited to those 12 guests max. restrictions?
  17. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Lloyds+100A1. The + means it was built under special survey. Fully classed by Lloyd's. The 100 came from "lasts 100 years".

    SSC means Lloyd's classified it as a Special Service Craft.

    Yacht Mono means it's classified as a monohull yacht.

    G6 means service group 6 with no restrictions and ocean going.

    LMC is a Lloyd's Machinery Certificate meaning surveyed to their requirements.

    UMS is unmanned machinery space, meaning the engine room doesn't have to be attended.

    MCA LY2 means MCA has classified it per the large commercial yacht code which has now been updated to LY3.

    If I have any of that wrong, someone please point it out.
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Commercially classified yachts as in the example you gave are then not limited to 12 passengers. It's extra work if you're going to charter and most small charter boats don't go through it, but large one's will generally always be classed as show above.

    It's easiest if you plan it before starting the build so that everything is directed toward it.

    The underlying governing rules are SOLAS, the International Convention for Safety Of Life At Sea.
  19. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I might add that there are significant costs involved too but on larger boats insurers would require them anyway. It requires complete surveys every five years with an intermediate between years two and three.
  20. Milow232

    Milow232 Guest

    Yes I know the terms of her classification but thanks Olderboater!

    As you can see, LY2/LY3 classed vessels are also limited to the max. 12 passengers restriction:

    11. The Code applies to motor or sailing vessels of 24 metres in load line length and over or, if built before 21 July 1968, which are of 150 tons gross tonnage and over and which, at the time, is in commercial use for sport or pleasure and which carries no cargo and no more than 12 passengers. 12. The Code only applies to vessels of less than 3000GT

    So there is perhaps another reason for it? Correct me if am wrong.