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Engine Concepts...

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by karo1776, Aug 10, 2014.

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  1. bobhorn

    bobhorn Member

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    So how come there are no dry sump marine diesels?

    Bob
  2. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    Bob,
    I would think that the main reason is that every marine diesel produced, other than large ship engines, is converted from a generator, truck or machinery engine. The producer already has the oil pan casting or stamping and sees no need to offer anything else. It will also add to the cost slightly but with the pre-lube feature it might still be competitive. The concept for would be to offer it as an option. For all applications it will provide more space between the top of the engine and the salon or hatch floor and provide a lower center of gravity.
  3. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Technical Ideas

    Boy oh boy did the Buck engine encounter some market resistance here.

    Be that as it may it is a good concept that needs more work to prove out... and I hope this happens.

    WARNING CAVEAT EMPTOR
    >>>>NOW I HAVE LITTLE EXPERIENCE IN PERSONALLY OPERATING MARINE DIESELS OR MAINTAINING THEM<<<< but I do know a little about developing engines.

    As to the Buck or really any smaller to mid size marine engine:

    I have for a long time thought that the Voith waste heat system had some merit but thought it was impractical, they have stopped promoting it!

    The discussion of the Buck engine got me to thinking really the important thing for marine engines is heat control in low loading situations, and in long highly loaded operations like generators... and in particular reducing valve wear and recession.

    Usually marine engines tend to be underloaded and overcooled which is erosive for engine life OR used where under long duration higher outputs the issue is also thermal but also valve recession requiring higher maintenance.

    The idea that would I think help is to used a very high flow and pressure cooling system and run the engine coolant temperature 150 degrees C or 300 degrees F or maybe better. Cause the heat to be removed by nucleate boiling. In engines this is called an ebullient cooling system. The heat rejection capabilities as to the coolant and metal interfaces goes way up. You are not removing heat solely by convection but by phase change as the micro bubbles are formed... limited in size by the pressure and... and limited in forming a steam film by the flow rates. As the micro bubbles are formed they by the phase shift remove large amounts of heat and as they are easily detached carry this into the coolant stream very effectively. In actual research engines this has shown to significantly reduce valve seat surround metal temperatures to a great degree... the numbers can be amazing... and also limit the temperature variation in the engines components leading to longer or better overall durability; ability to reduce tolerance, and; reduce valve seat wear and recession. Noting the reduced and more equalized metal internal temperatures with the higher coolant temperature. This is how PWR pressurized water reactors are possible in the nuclear field... otherwise you could not get the heat out effectively.

    This makes the coolant system more dangerous to breaking hose or springing leaks. But with that issue solved it allowed the engine coolant to be used to create low pressure steam and if used with the Voith exhaust waste heat system would likely near double its efficiency at recovering waste heat. Along with the other benefits. I see this really possible with generator sets and also shore use such as co-generator systems.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Most all of the diesel engines I deal with have nothing but gear driven pumps, both coolant and raw water. The only thing driven by a belt on them is the alternator and I see that as a good thing because if the voltage regulator is bad you can simply take the belt off and run off of the 240volt ac battery charger until you can get it fixed.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I take a different approach. KISS. Oil pans and a mechanical oil pump have been used for ages now and are reliable. A dry sump system has gains, lower oil pan height, lower mounting height, maybe more HP. But it also has more items to fail, hoses to and from the oil pump, a sump for the oil, etc etc......I think I'd rather have it the way it is.
  6. P46-Curaçao

    P46-Curaçao Senior Member

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    Maybe the marine (and truck) business is too conservative, buy what supposed to be good, don’t look for better if not proven for years. This way, innovations take a veryyyyyyyy longggggg timeeee
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Or, why fix something that isn't broken.
  8. Yachtjocky

    Yachtjocky Senior Member

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    Questions

    Where I come from these questions you are asking now are called "putting the cart before the horse".

    With hindsight you may have been better off starting a thread asking what all of us engineers, captains, owners etc would look for in a completely newly designed engine.

    Most of the answers would probably point to the engine you have designed and built however to come here and claim this and that for an engine that is basically a dream has gotten you to where you find yourself now.

    I know that Marmot, Kiwi and myself are all qualified chief engineers with many years of experience on all kinds of engines and machinery and I would suggest that instead of being confrontational with them, or any other member, you should be listening, that's how I learned and I am sure the others did so as well.

    Myself, I have 44 years as an engineer, senior position in a shipping company and a business owner from boat building, engine dealer and marine engineering (trucking, fish farms, marine stores being part of my "empire"), and to be honest I would not give you the time of day.

    You mention the worlds largest Diesel engines have there crank shafts installed from the top, that is true but what most on here don't realize is the actual size of these engines. Let's just say one bearing cap out of the 13 mains weighs more than your crank shaft. Twelve cylinders, how do I know well I was the chief engineer during the build and first trip out of the worlds largest Diesel engine at that time.

    I know Marmot has that kind of experience as well and both of us have gone from those size of engines to the "smaller" yacht engines. If you know those engines you will also know they, big ship engines, are years ahead of yacht engines.

    I was a Gardner dealer years ago and before being sold to Perkins (I was also a Perkins dealer) they saw that they were loosing business to small, lighter, higher horse power engines and rushed to produce an aluminum engine. What a disaster. Like you say though materials have come a long way so yours may have a chance.

    It is very rare to see Capt J & Marmot agreeing (it looks like a love fest) and it is even more rare for me to agree with both of them but I do, well some of what they say, lol.

    Bolt on gear driven equipment is not new at the front end and the bolt on equipment to the transmission although a newer concept has been around for years as well.

    I doubt if you could get a commercial boat, especially a ferry, to have your engine(s) installed unless the owner is desperate because most of them only have a single main engine and who would take a chance. A twin engine ferry would have a lot of liability issues.

    Why don't you go after many smaller shareholders to put up the money for you to build your "final" design, test it thoroughly and then put it into a boat owned by those same shareholders. Get all the data that Marmot is asking about, show olderboater the durability of the engine and then call that same caterpillar representative back who obviously looked at your prototype and had no interest in it and show him the test rig data and the data from running it in a boat and then take him for a ride and show off.

    Then license the design and sit back and get that monthly payment, you can start a thread on your newly purchased yacht forums web site (I am sure an offer of a few million would persuade Carl) and post what ever you like, any posts you disagree with you can just delete.

    A few on here may remember a guy in town who I would describe as being between a genius and a paid up member of the funny farm. Fiberglass shafts and Propellors may give a hint of who I am talking about, his ideas were considered radical at the time and they did not work but who would have known if he had not at least tried so stick with your dreams but please stop being so confrontational and you may get some good ideas to incorporate into your planned new engine.

    You may even get some offers of financial aid as I heard that Carl, NY Capt, Marmot, Olderboater, Kiwi, Capt J and a Swedish designer are all very rich and looking for investment opportunities.

    Good luck.
  9. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    Great post. Thanks for the input. There is a patent for the Hybrid Cooling system on this engine. Parallel cooling instead of series cooling. Short cooling paths for more passes and the cylinders don't touch. The cylinders also have fins for additional cooling. In testing this approach I found it to cool better than anything I have seen. A very efficient after cooler also adds greatly to the cooling.

    My chief consulting engineer offered an interesting twist. Eliminating the glycol coolant all together and cool the engine with engine oil. Many advantages with this approach.

    l
  10. P46-Curaçao

    P46-Curaçao Senior Member

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    Crowdfunding could be an option indeed, but than you have to make it way more sexy...
  11. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. It is hard to make industrial manufacturing sexy. Believe me I have tried. The funding required is so large, it will most likely require an early PO and raise funding in phases.
  12. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    Yeah, I am still watching a tube TV. Really love to have a flat screen.
  13. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    karo1776,

    Since you have engine testing experience, what can you tell me about the NATO 400 hour and the 1000 hour Navy test.
  14. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Basically those tests are not development tests. They are qualification tests part of what is call in military circles "type classification". It is very similar to how boat classification societies work. The classification testing is to prove out the engine meets the requirements in the military sense... to be able to be released to production and use by the "users."

    These tests are done on either existing equipment or hardware or new preproduction equipment to prove its acceptability for the use intended or that the equipment is to be put in service to support. Mostly this has to do with safety issues but also service (use) and durability issues. For example to "qualify an aircraft" or another thing a bomb, a car, pistol, a tank, a landing craft it has to be proven safe to store, transport and use AND proven to work well enough that it meets the use intended.

    Once you are confident that your development of the engine is complete and it is read to be produced, i.e. in a preproduction release for final production, you would run it through those test programs. Depending on the agency purchasing it you might have to run "one" or "one hundred" or "one thousand" or "three thousand" of whatever widget you were qualifying. This varies with agencies. As most are highly bureaucratic they are hugely conservative. The US Army qualifications standards are much higher than the Spanish or French Army standards or some banana republic standards... the US Army is a larger bureaucracy.

    In the following "sell your idea" means "convince them to adopt it and issue it."
    If you were to sell your engine idea to the US Army for generators or trucks or tanks you would be run through the wringer of tests and it would be not just one engine. If you were to sell you engine idea to the Navy it would be the same. But if you were to sell idea to the US Navy Seal Teams for use in some kind of patrol boat and they like you and it the tests might be significantly less. Same with any other special but smaller group... but in doing so the Navy would be allowed to use it for every use they had... but if you had tried to qualify it through bureau of ship you would have a higher standard to meet.

    NATO is the same way... get a small group that wants it and they will write the specs and run the tests more favorably than a larger group.

    If I were you I would go to the US Marines or the one of the special forces that might need a lightweight, easy to fix, high output diesel and see if they would fund your engineering development. Your Buck engine has all the kinds of things that militaries like going for it.

    Likely you might get this because you have an engine... that's your bona fides. Marius Paul had some ideas but got the Marines to fund his crazy deal in the early 1990's to the tune of 22 million US dollars. But he had to partner with DDMTU (as it is now) to get some credibility. They did it because with was someone else's money. What did the Marines get... we an engine that ran a few minutes before breaking its rings... and that had the power output of a 1860s Ericsson steam engine... and the thermal efficiency of an open fire. But they let crazies run the project... with little supervision.

    Why does this work well... bureaucratic agencies never want to get anything really accomplished or want to save money... just the opposite. The subtext unspoken is if it has no chance of working and will cost an infinite amount to accomplish but they can say it will work next week and will cost next to nothing you are set... and got a winner. Past my bedtime... and I wanted to go sailing tomorrow!
  15. Chasm

    Chasm Senior Member

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    That bumps up the pressure to roughly 5 bar (~70psi).
    Not impossible but certainly a problem if stuff happens. Like opening the hot cooling system. Instant boiling of all water in the system, filling the engine compartment with hot steam a few milliseconds later. After all the water to steam expansion rate is roughly 1700.

    (Remember, demonstrating fat explosions outside is interesting. Doing the same in an enclosure is really scary.)
  16. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Perhaps not intentional on anyone's part but there is some level of implication that the major engine builders-car, truck, boat and other-are not researching and trying novel and new approaches every day. They just don't talk about it publicly. I will guarantee there are CAT employees who have read every page of Buck's website and watched the video and tossed around opinions. Probably reading this forum as well. Keeping up with their competitors. Tearing engines down that others have built. All engine builders have large research and development departments. They come up with a lot of small changes and a very few major ones. General Motors spends about $8 billion a year. Toyota about $10 billion. Rolls Royce Daimler Power Systems (MTU) spends just under $2 billion on research and development.

    So let's not think for a moment these companies aren't coming up with hundreds of concepts and evaluating those presented to them constantly.
  17. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    I agree, a boat is not the best place for this approach.
  18. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    When talking micro bubbles of steam on a hot surface transferring heat to water/coolant they can also have the opposite effect, as a insulator. This phenomenon "steam film" as you referred to is called the Leidenfrost effect .
  19. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    I was thinking of maybe once the engine had been tweaked in the test cell and was ready for endurance testing, the NATO 400 hour might be the one to complete first. Are there other endurance and durability test you might recommend?
  20. kmb1949

    kmb1949 New Member

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    Hope they are.
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