Click for Cross Click for Westport Click for Glendinning Click for Nordhavn Click for Perko

Sailboat to trawler, but which trawler?

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by SailorGreg, Jun 19, 2014.

Page 3 of 5
  1. HTMO9, Jul 10, 2014
    #41
    HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Location:
    Germany
    Sailing catamarans

    Brian, do not get me wrong. I did not say my deceased wife got seasick because of the special motion of a catamaran, she got sick of sailing with monohulls in general because of that constant heeling and living on sloped floors. Our agreement was, if I wanted her to continue sailing with me, I was suppost to buy something, that would only and always sail upright and provide sheltered superstructure above main deck level - a large Catamaran!

    Modern Catamarans have many advantages in comparison to monohulls, if designed, constructed and build propperly. They are lighter, faster, have less draft, do need far less energy, if propelled by machinery, provide a great amont of living space and most likely they are the best type of boat for circumnavigators, long time cruisers and liveaboards.

    But they have to be sailed with different maneuvers and tactics than monuhulls. Their behaviour in waves is different than monuhulls and you have to get used to it. But that corksrew type rolling-yawing-pitching is by no means unsafe. If a catamaran is structually sound, it can withstand the heaviest weather.

    The design of catamarans is constantly developing and advancing. The family of cat lovers is devided in the to big categories of daggerboard fans and fixed keel fans. I prefer shallow long fixed keels after having seen the damage on a larger daggerboard Catana catamaran, when the board was forgotten upon entering shallow waters at pretty high speed.

    At present time Cat designs are changing with the possibility of wind tunnel testing. I do not mean those racing carbon monsters with wing sails, etc. I do mean cruising catamarans. On newer design the mast is moving more aft and the use of different high tech fore sails is getting more and more important. That will have some influence on the external design of cruising cats in the future.

    The biggest problem for me personally is, that most production cats are of French origin and most if not almost all highly skilled catamaran design bureaus are French. That incorporates some if not many problems with quality (like the many rumours about cracks on Lagoon hulls after only a few years of use) and communication during design and build of a cat.

    For a custom design and build, their is really only one good custom builder in France. The only other choice would be a custom build in Aluminum Down Under but with the designer and naval architect sitting in Paris and the builder on the other side of the globe, a lot of problems may arise.

    Brian, will say, intrinsically I am a large fan of (large cruising) Cats :)
  2. karo1776, Jul 10, 2014
    #42
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
  3. PacBlue, Jul 10, 2014
    #43
    PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,988
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
  4. HTMO9, Jul 10, 2014
    #44
    HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Location:
    Germany
    My European point of view

    There are also some very good South Afirican catamarans, English (are they still part of Europe? :rolleyes:) and many more. But from the plain number of Cats sold, the french production cats are the vast majority on the seven seas. And I did not say, I like them, it is more the the other way around. But without question, Van Peteghem & Loriot-Prevost and Phillippe Briand are among the best bureaus for catamaran design and naval architecture in the world (at the moment). If I would go for a large custom catamaran, I choose on of the above for the design, but would not have a real idea for a good builder, unless I would be willing to pay a ridiculous high price.

    From the OPs question, to convert from sailing to trawler type boating, the question why not a sailing or even a power cat is not so far off. I know of some long term sailors, who were confronted with the same question, convert from sailing to motor boating due to comfort requirements, living space and workload (age). And they tried the step from a monohull to a sailing cat. And they are very happy with it.
  5. karo1776, Jul 11, 2014
    #45
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
  6. K1W1, Jul 11, 2014
    #46
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    7,394
    Location:
    My Office
  7. grumps, Jul 11, 2014
    #47
    grumps

    grumps New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2007
    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    Fenit Ireland
    Yacht Bonker

    Agree, great craft - exceptional in layout and design, however, your estimate of price is a little out try a whisker under THREE million dollars ex tax
  8. SFS, Jul 11, 2014
    #48
    SFS

    SFS Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    122
    Location:
    Tampa
    But at least it has an extension! ;)
  9. karo1776, Jul 11, 2014
    #49
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Had limited the search to max of 999K dollars... hate that when they sneak one in like that. But you know he's/it's dutch so what would you expect they invented profit. There are places you could build that same boat and quality for less than a million... maybe even in Holland.

    Bonker is the designers personal boat, and he is about the best cruiser sail or motor designer around. But it the layout screams european waterways... so I don't know it would be best for the gentleman starting the thread and his cruising area... but I posted it as you never know.

    K1W1 is right that Hakvoort would be about perfect and right in there price wise. Considering size and the cruising area.
  10. karo1776, Jul 17, 2014
    #50
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
  11. brian eiland, Jul 18, 2014
    #51
    brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,955
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    That is a LOT of boat for that kind of money. ...and twin Gardner engines of a reasonable size to give great fuel economy.

    Just imagine what it would cost to build these days :eek:
  12. SailorGreg, Jul 18, 2014
    #52
    SailorGreg

    SailorGreg New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    8
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    reply

    Thanks for all the food for thought so far. A few comments: I think that anything over 60 ft is more than I want to deal with. And anything much older than 2000 brings with it more work and worry than I am willing to take on. My last two boats were both 15 years + old when I bought them and with both, updates turned into restorations, at least judging by the money and effort I put into them. And even then... Next, catamarans may make sense for some, but not for me. No good reason, other than they don't look like boats. Boats outside the USA are too much trouble. Boats from builders with less than "very good" reputations are out. Terms like "excellent" build quality are meaningful for me.
    KK's look good to me, and Nordhavns are appealing, but with some of the N's I give up many canals, parts of the ICW, etc. Selenes, somewhere in between on draft in both directions. And from what has been said elsewhere on this forum, maybe not up to "excellent" build quality. Some Nordhavn's require lots of vertical travel, winding narrow staircases, etc, but have nice headroom and would be my favorite boat in the Mona passage ( I have yet to get that trip right)
    A 1/2 step away from the full displacement is the Fleming 55, which is appealing in terms of layout, etc. No sense of how the admiral would judge the ride across the stream on a KK vs a Fleming. Disregard the stream for a minute, on the average offshore day, just how much difference is there between a Fleming (for example) and a KK or N of similar size?
    With some other semi-displacement boats, the engines get even bigger. I am happy w 8 knots, and a few gallons an hour is appealing. Most of the semi-displacement boats on YW tend to be set up more for coastal cruising and marina hopping, but not all; small battery banks, small engine alternators, all electric galleys, etc
    Current boat hasn't sold as yet, so still time. Will be doing some more hands on check-outs here next month so will see what I think after crawling around on a few more boats.
  13. brian eiland, Jul 18, 2014
    #53
    brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,955
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    Multiplast Marine & ExclusivE 76 Catamaran

    Just wondering if you ever had any contact with this French designer/builder, Gilles Oliver of Multiplast Marine. He has been designing and building for many years, of course many of the early big racing types. He built a few of those 110 footer that entered the 'RACE' around the world in 2000,....Club Med, Team Adventure, ....and before that Geronimo, Jet Services, Credit Agricole, Royale....etc

    But he was on the scene long before this when all of the Formula 40 multihull racing was beginning back in the 1985 era. I visited his shop on several occasions back then, while trying to pick a large cat to import to the USA. I finally picked the Fountaine/Pajot line as the most likely contender for a steady production of cruising cats. their first product was the Louisiane 37' which I brought to the Annapolis Boat Show in 1986-87 if I remember properly.

    Here is an interesting chronology of their's
    Chronology of design
    (you can scroll back thru their history)
    So you can see that Multiplast has quite a BIG history of designing and building large multihulls.

    This was a model of a big power cat he was proposing at the time (he was ahead of his time)...
    RunningTideYachts, Ltd. Photo Album of Design References Page 16
    TrawlerCat, Gilles Ollier.jpg





    One of his designs/builds I was real interested to see how it progressed was the ExclusivE 76. Here are some images

    and a little press release at the time (Oct 2009)
    Ah Ha...I thought I had posted some material on this ExclusivE 76 before,....just found it here
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/172100-post199.html
    ExclusivE 76 under sail.jpg
  14. HTMO9, Jul 19, 2014
    #54
    HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Location:
    Germany
    ExclusivE 76

    Also we are kidnapping this trawler thread, Brian, I must agree with you, the ExclusivE 76 is a beautiful (external) design and fits my personal taste to 100 %!! As you might remember, we have this 24 Meter length limit in Europe for leasure boats. This Catamaran would fit perfectly within this limit. The Flybridge design is perfectly proportioned, the boat does not look tall at all. But the biggest problem with a 24 Meter Cat is the design of the internal layout. There is no other type of boat in this world, where more internal space can be spoiled and ergonomics compromized due to a poorly designed internal layout.

    But I have problems finding the yard. Do they still exist?

    I am not in favor for Alustar at all. GRP / CRP / Aramid cored hulls are perfect for any type of boat IMHO up to 50 Meters in length, except may be ice going displacement boats. But you have to be able to find a yard, which is willing AND capable of building in this material and building method plus has experience and facilities to build a catamaran of this size. The yard that has built my sons fast boat could and would build this Cat in Carbon / Aramid but has no shed to host this giant.

    The yard, I have found in France is favoring Alustar for any custom cruising Cat above 80 ft, because of molding costs and efforts. The Dutch yard, that would be willing to build a Catamaran does only build in Alustar.

    So my solution was and still is, a French design bureau and naval architect and a Northern European yard with the reputation of being a great sailboat builder in Alustar and / or Carbon-Aramid plus sailing gear from down under (NZ).

    You just cant have it all.

    And for the OP: I strongly recommend to have a close look at the Nordhavn 52 or 60. Because they are IMHO great boats with great quality and lots of living space for their size plus I concider them still as US boats. But with a big difference, forget about the fin stabilizers and add either one of those Dutch electric rotating tube stabs or even better a seakeeper gyro stabilizer system.
  15. Marmot, Jul 19, 2014
    #55
    Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    Quadruple Gardners. The gensets are 4 cylinder Gardners.

    Yachting is a small world, the engine in my avatar is the starboard main on that boat.
  16. Capt J, Jul 19, 2014
    #56
    Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,435
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Yes, but the problem with GRP is you have to first build a mold, to then make that one custom boat which makes it very cost prohibitive. If you're against alumastar or aluminum for a one off boat, then cold molded would make a lot of sense and quite frankly has a lot of good merits: strong, light, easy to work with, not very maintanence heavy to maintain, sound absortion, etc.
  17. PacBlue, Jul 19, 2014
    #57
    PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,988
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
    There are certainly many ways to make a one-off male or female mold for a custom GRP hull that would be in a similar cost structure as the CNC cut jigs/frames for a cold molded vessel.

    Knight & Carver was doing this for many years for quite a few different one-off GRP power boats.
  18. Old Phart, Jul 19, 2014
    #58
    Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    1,332
    Location:
    I dunno
  19. karo1776, Jul 20, 2014
    #59
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    And...
    So very true Brian...

    Well it is a small world... long long time ago I was briefly aboard this boat... Marmot as I remember it was built in Australia ??? I really really liked the boat and the choices made on the machinery. For a live-a-board cruiser I can think of none better.

    I would chose this boat over the Hakvoort posted here any day!

    Campers has it listed as built by Benetti... and Lloydes ships... the good thing it was very well made in aluminum that I believe is a better choice than steel for long trouble free life and those Gardner engines really are an excellent choice for what the man starting this thread needs. It would be more comfortable to live with too... and I believe easier to service.

    A comment on the 'twin hull' takeover. France is the multihull capital of the world. JFA is an excellent builder and specializes in multihull sailing cruisers.
    I consider their work in aluminum superior to even the best dutch yards.
    Video of hull construction, notice the seam welding prep
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jwb5ftfI1w

    Nice video of the new one just built... its construction shown above
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyFV90UCvaQ

    Builders concept video...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye3YFMKkXdI

    Video on sailing cat... in rough weather.... very good reference for experience
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBve75x04o

    Now catana is an excellent composite builder... and perhaps as HTMO9 for sail boats composite is the best choice.
  20. karo1776, Jul 20, 2014
    #60
    karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Speaking of Catana.... as you see France is a hotbed of multihull activity.

    Catana.... I am really impressed by them... here is their technology page.
    http://www.catana.com/en/technology/twaron-impact-.html

    The composite construction they use is ideal for boats. The Kevlar layer is not the typical "49" fibers but "29" which for impact resistance is much better. The hulls are carbon composite over foam and the Kevlar layer on the lower areas (subject to impact on the hulls)...

    These guys are in Var area
    Canet Plage is about 4-5 hours west from Cannes... going via Nimes the E80 to A9 to the D617 or a good day on the water!
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
Page 3 of 5