Are these refit costs accurate?

I'd say they are true. Very poorly detailed but true. Looks like all the work was done in Cable at their per hour rate and parts mark up. So you pay top dollar for everything like at most any yard.

Anyone accepting and paying such an invoice, deserves to be ripped off.
I can't imagine it possible.
Item 9 which includes sicaflex & caulking then goes to cutlass seals & alignment are different trades all thrown together.
Then 16, 17 and 22 are all over the place & include mention of "re-paint" then "Paint touch-up" plus engine oils are charged more than twice.

This is a made up invoice or the yard is a scam.

As previously noted it is a reference document and is titled "Invoice History". Nothing looks to unusual imagining the context around some of those lines, they could have spent a whole lot more on line 15 if the description is correct!
Very loosely you can expect to pay around €14k per m2 in a N European yard at the moment, obviously there are exceptions going either way, but that is probably a good benchmark.

That boat had a major refit between the start of 2010 and August of this year. Nearly every area of the boat and more extensive than that document gives you an indication of. The refit items are listed on the sale listing. It's a gorgeous boat and spacious for it's size too. I'm only speculating but looking at some of the items done from 2004-2010 it wasn't maintained in some of those areas perhaps as well as needed. Interesting that the amounts reflected on that sheet is now just over half of the asking price for the boat.

I would not think that a well maintained boat should need that extensive a refit starting less than six years from purchase (Sometime 2004 to January 2010). Everything done from replacing all carpet to replacing all engine room hoses and clamps to tender and davit. Some things added that it didn't have before like a Watermaker and blinds.

Hi,

It looks like an overview of what has been done.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would pay bills based on such one line entries.

The time span for the list is 3.5 yrs, don't seem like there was much time to enjoy the boat with all that Erik going on IMO.

Tristanrowe - What exactly do you get fir €14k /m2 in Nthn Europe?

Depending on the demarcation on the quoting you could turn over a cabin with all the services terminating somewhere inside and the subbie would provide the full interior construction including acoustic / fire insulation and soles (non structural), the fixtures and fittings as defined in the spec and provisions for the AC & AV equipment. Basically all fixed furniture to the correct finish with wired up lights, blinds & interior glazing.

€14k is a mid to high figure and you can appreciate the complexity of the wording in the spec and the contract that would get you to a fixed price! You can cut out details of that full package and massively reduce the appearance of the cost per m2, but they will reappear in the costs of other work packages. I don't have to tell you about the range in prices for items like taps and light switches.

We certainly don't always do it this way, but I wont go in to that for obvious reasons.

With regards to this vessel I'm guessing that the one liner didn't mean a refit to the extent I have outlined.

Then as soon as completed, put on market. Makes you wonder if it was a new owner refitting, someone who had bought it for resale, or old owner wanting to sell or what. Taking it out of service for most of 3 1/2 years and spending half as much on it as it's market asking price after. Sure seems to indicate a boat purchased in 2004 and by the end of 2009 it was in much disrepair.

The yacht did actually move around on the water a bit during 2010 and 2011, shown at Port Everglades and at Hilton Head. Maybe new owner just wanted everything right. In addition to carpet replaced, all furniture either replaced or reupholstered it appears. TV's replaced and A/V systems updated. Mechanically they refit the rudder and the stern thruster fittings and hoses, replaced all engine room hoses and clamps, reworked all sumps, put a neew servo valve, added a watermaker, refit the anchor rollers, added an Arid bilge system, did shaft cutlass/seals/alignment, added shorepower softstarts, replaced anchor chain, maintained the engines and generators, replaced all faucets, replaced the batteries, added a new davit and system, added a new tender, refit the engine room and lazerette including deck and new flooring, refurbished the a/c and sea strainers, worked on the electrical system and a panel and the props. Then interior wise it was like a complete makeover.

You can let a boat go and take short cuts along the way and end up with this kind of situation. I know many owners look for the cheapest way along the way. We don't know if the boat was owner operated or had crew. I think for Captains and Engineers who have owners always looking for the cheap way out, it must be terribly frustrating. We're trying to be very proactive. Sure wish there were some before photos to go with the current ones online.

We did a refit on the Hatt from January to May (was supposed to be March/April) of this year, took it out and immediately sent it back into (a different) yard for another 3 months to complete the work the first yard didn't do. The owner was starting to wonder if he'd get to cruise. I explained that a refit takes up to a year or more on a 30 year old boat. Since September we've cruised about 30 days, which I consider the shakedown, and now have the boat in a 3rd yard to take care of what came up during the shakedown. At times during a refit it can definitely feel like you're not getting to enjoy the boat, but I can see some good gaps in that jobs list that I assume were spent cruising. One thing I will say is that the prices can vary greatly from one area to another or even one yard to another. Also the quality of the estimates given. The Hatt has been in 4 yards during the last 12 months and things have run the gammet from nothing getting done to being treated like royalty. Prices have run from how much can we take them for to where can we save them money.

I agree the costs do not look out of line with the limited information given. As I just said in another thread, it depends on what condition the boat is in and what standards you want to bring it to and maintain it at. I found an old invoice from a prior owner of our 56 hatteras MY, for an interior refit in 1996. Extensive, but not complete, much of the boat is still OEM. $106,000. Didn't surprise me at all. A boat will absorb all the maintenance and upgrades you can throw at it and still beg for more before you know it. As a wise yard owner told me when we starting out "We can do anything you want; the only limitations are your standards, your imagination, and your checkbook".

I have had several owners, buy a used boat. Change all furnishings, fix/upgrade many things to their tastes, then a year or two down the road they decide they want something different, don't like yachting at all, or have come to grips that the spending never ends and sell it.

When I was first hired the boat had been at Cable Marine. Prices were out of line then and those on that list look out of line as well. Work was not top notch either. YMMV.

My father taught me you don't get what you expect you get what you inspect. The best thing my owner did is hire a captain who had worked a yard long enough to know when they were trying to take you for a ride. Apparently this owner of the boat in question did not do the same. The first clue is spelling mistakes on any bill that high. The captain ought to have several updates on invoices and at the end should sit down with the yard boss/manager and go line by line over the charges.

Except that isn't a bill. That is just a log of bills and work performed by several. It also is very summary and the work actually performed is far more extensive than indicated on the log. So your assumptions are incorrect which means your conclusions may or may not be correct. We haven't seen the detail of the invoices or the line by line charges, so we can't judge except in generalities. Is it possible the total work performed merited the total expenditure? Yes. Is it possible the expenditure was excessive for the work performed? Yes.

Again, we're looking at a log prepared by whom we don't know. Maybe owner, maybe captain, maybe someone else. We do not have access to the invoices. We can see more of the work performed on the sale listing but still can't evaluate the reasonableness of the charges.

I never said it was a bill nor an invoice, nor did I assume it was. I'm not sure what a "very summary" is, nor do I assume the work is "far more extensive than indicated". Could you show us the actual invoices or work reports which prove that? I'm not sure where my assumptions come from either since I assume as little as possible. When my boat was at Cable the invoices for the work performed were very high and unreasonable. They charged for work not completed and also stated some work could not be done- yet I did the work myself later at the dock. They refused to respond to several letters and calls from my owner.
As I said- YMMV- (your mileage may vary)- meaning others may find Cable Marine's work to be wonderful and the charges totally reasonable. I did not, and obviously I was not impressed. I had worked for the Viking Service Center as a mechanic in Palm Beach county for about three years immediately prior to picking the boat up from Cable Marine so I was familiar with yard work quality and charges. Could the work from Cable in this instance be reasonable? As you said, yes. Could it be unreasonable, also yes. Until there is more information posted we don't know. My conclusion is that it is not. I could be wrong. Most yards seem to work under the assumption that owners are made of money and they charge accordingly. I've never had a final invoice which I reviewed with the yard that did not have some charges which were found to be excessive. Some had very few, some had most every item on the punch list which were over-charged.

olderboater is absolutely correct.

When I first saw this thread I thought it was non sequitur as it was not a ledger of one yard period... a itemized invoice list.

It was a general listing over yard repairs and upgrades over 3 1/2 years. It is a list of various yard minor refits and other maintenance yard periods and upgrades. The periods of dates appear to coincide with preseason... mid season... and post season service periods with use in between. It is from serval different vendors.

As to the costs of about $400,000 per annum expense for a 86 foot boat... As a general comment I would say that would be typical for a very well maintained boat or even exceptionally maintained boat. Or, a boat with lots of problems originally built in.

The details hidden in the items of the list are not evident to any real extent... Some of these would be multiple page lists of small items but it is generally condensed for this.

Usually if you were buying the boat each of this would be logged and in detail accounted for and the manager or captain should have these details. The captain should also be able to provide comments as to the quality of work.

Hiring a surveyor you would find he would on seeing this list go "so it tells me pretty much nothing.... where are the logs and details of these works" he would then put those details on his list of checks to look at to see if the particular items were performed and up to standards. If he found thing actually had not been done or incompletely accounted for or suspect... you would be getting a report from him saying so. A good surveyor doing his job cannot just do a lookie see over he has to check and with a vast experience investigate in detail. It takes time on his part and money on your part. I am not a surveyor but someone here who is might take a little time to explain the professional thorough process a little. You would be surprised what a good man will find out.

I also don't look at that as a 3.5 year list but more likely covering a lot of the 9 years of maintenance needed. Things like carpet certainly apply to the entire period of use. Replacing or reupholstering all upholstered furniture is a result of the 9 years. Also replacing the davit and tender and all hoses and clamps. One thing I think it may point out is Fram's "Pay me now or pay me later" advice. If one isn't careful they can mislead themselves the first few years of ownership, especially if they put off items. Things like the watermaker aren't maintenance but it's new equipment added.

As I said, I have no idea whether the charges are reasonable or not and neither does anyone else with the limited information. Prior experience with Cable, whether good or bad, doesn't say anything about this experience.

And, Bamboo, actually you did indicate bill as you said, "The first clue is spelling mistakes on any bill that high". You went on a Cable attack based on prior experience. While all experiences are informative to us as a group, they may or may not pertain this time. We don't know. Now as to how I know the work was more extensive than what is shown on the listing without seeing invoices, I've looked at the sales listing on the boat which details more of the work. Still doesn't tell us if charges were reasonable, but clearly tells us this wasn't routine maintenance as one would anticipate yearly.

Another comment...

You need to see the underlaying records. Not just invoices. I notice oils changes featured on some large line items. Not just the invoices of oil changes BUT IMPORTANTLY analysis results. If there are no analysis records you have no idea what you got.

Now to show why this makes one suspicious... as example. A friend of mine who was chief engineer on a diesel powered Naval vessels in his early life. Later an engineer at engine manufacturers... later a consultant... I have used him several times. So an interesting story comes to mind...

He was hired to review a yacht engine system on a new in yard yacht... steel hull.... and come up with what to do about it. It was a large boat with large engines (not mentioning brand nor yard nor boat) but they had crankcase access openings. Well after the engines and major equipment were installed the engine room was prepped for paint... this included some grit blasting. Somehow a couple of the accesses to the crankcases were not sealed close... actually open... by accidental oversight... grit found it way into the open crankcases. Everything else was protective seal caps on piping and or taped and sealed well... the contractor doing the grit blasting did this with the engines accesses open apparently not noticing. These are very expensive engines (2000 hP size) and brand new.

The some of the grit blast guys were apparently new or not paying attention nor somehow a whole lot of other people... but it happened... OMG. It happened but what to do now? Well it was decided to clean up as best as possible and as the costs to replace would include cutting holes in the hull... and disrupting a whole lot of stuff... it was decided to clean up as best as possible... monitor things as the best course... and extra oil changing and monitoring analysis.

Well over a period of careful analysis in operation... my friend found it was all OK. He was the one that made the recommendations... and the cleanup and followup was well done. But it was scary. If I had been the owner I would have been real nervous... and it would have been a big question for a long time in my mind.

As to Karo's comments on the captain and surveyors I would add this too. Have someone representing you managing any build, any refit, any major maintenance. The good builders and shipyards have no issues with it and actually encourage when it is done right. They have their guidelines which are generally quite reasonable. Main one is don't get in the way and don't interfere with the workers. If you have issues talk to the person who is your contact and talk to him when he's not tied up with someone else. Handle it professionally and as a mutual undertaking, not in an accusatory manner. In some ways it makes their job easier because they don't have to deal with an owner who doesn't understand their work. Also having someone readily available to discuss additional findings or recommended modifications in what was planned. Also, depending on the type and extent of work done, such as major structural hull work, then bringing a surveyor in makes a lot of sense.