Deciding what Boat to build

Ahoy, newyachtfan – Welcome!!

Throw YF Mariners a bone, or three!

- Gen size of yacht/boat?

- Fast / slow / medium?

- Sail / pwr-sail / power?

- Glass / alum / steel / wood... other?

- Price range?

- Where usually kept / used?

- You have any past boating experience?

Cheers! W.

From his other thread, it sounds like a 50m, 500gt class yacht from a Premier European yard. For that size, I think Feadship probably has the best pedigree over other yards that serve in that class or a Heesen if he is looking for a semi-displacement yacht.

The question cannot be answered. You cannot compare a yard that builds a top notch sportfish with a top notch yacht or whichever. But I would say a US Navy yard, there are lots of US navy boats that are on display that were built in the 30's or older. No yacht is built as strong as a warship designed to take a torpedo hit.

It would be the same as asking "Which is the best wife/husband in the world?". Different people have different expectations and one which is heaven for some may be hell for others.

For me personally, if I'd have the money and time, I'd look at Royal Huisman, but then again, I am such a person which would perhaps enjoy the planning & building time more than actually using the boat.
Feadship is also considered as being up there at the top.

Both of them are full-on custom builders (allthough Feadship also runs a couple of semi-custom series).

Bruno

Hi,

Both of Brunos suggestions are right on the money as far as the quality and longevity goes.

It is also not unusual for someone to enjoy like Bruno the planning and execution of a build as much or more than owning and using the end result.

There is the Owner of a Feadship delivered in the last 12 months who is an experienced Owner who enjoys exactly this, he is already talking of what to build next.

Yes Feadship came in my mind ,too, or A&R they are in the buisness for a long time now, with much expierience.
You can prove the quality of different yards/yachts at the next Monaco yachtshow in september for example.

Hi!
A couple of clients of mine with whom I have fine personal relationships went through very similar decision-making.

a) 1m/m is, dare I say, a scare, especially if you don't want to get real fancy with interiors. This is basically a quote you get in "default" "pay and forget" mode.
Oeino actually had a special wharf built for his aluminium 70-meters semi-planner series because it turned out to be cheaper then order those from existing brands. "Homework Vs Money" is VERY articulated concept in yachting.

b) While it's smart to read whatever stuff is available online and ask questions on YF, it's still very advisable to get your own "team" on this as early as wants formulation stage. There are several approaches to that, from hiring one of established consultancies to carefully selecting a captain whom you plan on helming your ship and having him supervise the build - each of those has their advantages and disadvantages.

Keep triple-checking, because trusting even a "slightly wrong" person (which may happen even at "reputable consultancies" when they decide that relationships with builder in your particular case outweight defending your interests in full) could end up costing you absurd amounts of time/money. Close to 100% of end user costs in the industry are negotiable, savvy one would pay less for the same (and get better stuff for same pay) and lame one would just earn a reputation for being "cheap" (and probably end up with a cheap result) - all this experience is quite hard to come by. Dont go by any maxim including "right stuff costs more" - it's all situational. The only way to really guarantee yourself something is end up in good company with good people - not the cheapest, not the most expensive, not the most famous brand or name - the ones that do care about you and are proficient to convert it to results. It's finding those people that is the trick. Which obviously necessitates understanding a good deal of stuff yourself

c) Speaking of waste, extensive chartering is the best advice there could be. Fixing even one darn thing on a finished yacht - a think you didn't thought through well enough to begin with - "pays off" chartering fees learning to avoid it. Finding out you really need to build another yacht in a year of ownership - not only sets you up for a massive financial hit, but also wastes even more valuable and finite resource - time.

From the look of 3 different rich people getting on their megayachting story, I would say it's virtually impossible to charter too much before deciding on your own boat - matter of fact, 2 of those 3 said the same themselves (in the form of "I should have known that ... - why didn't i charter more different yachts...?") Third one ended up simply buying one of yachts he chartered. Not only you are looking and trying things out about boats itself - you also meet captains, crews, brokers and agencies - getting deeper "into the game" if you wish - all that before putting the ultimate multimillion bet on the table.

(I should probably add that from entirely pragmatical pov, unless you really do consider "living the rest of your life aboard", chartering out all the time you ever want to spend on a megayacht could easily turn out cheaper then purchasing and maintaining your own and sure is magnitudes less hassle. So if you do buy/build a yacht, make sure you get your 10/10 on "I'm proud to own this" scale because that's one of most important points )

d) And one last thing, relax about "lifetime". Every prospect first time owner dreams about building his One Perfect Yacht and living with it happily thereafter. Experience tells us that rarely if ever works that way - a good % of megayachts get sold real fast, and even those which are not do change hands eventually. That, incidentally, is among top reasons we don't see too many really unconventional megayachts like "A" - minding resale value and erring on a conservative side is quite wise, money-wise

In closing, it's pretty normal to change your mind about "what boat to build" hundreds of times - there are, indeed, tons of variables that matter. Even at your starting point, 40m grp production Sunseeker and 50m - even 45m - Feadship are things almost impossible to directly compare (in a manner you won't be comparing Porsche with Rolls-Royce), so do try stuff out.

When was the last time you had an offer from one of the top line yards mentioned here to build a 50m motor yacht?

The Captain and a couple of other specialists in their respective fields should form part of the team, there are a number of projects that have been solely Captain driven and supervised from the outset that have not turned out as the Owners had envisaged.

This is a pretty good statement for the most part with the exception that a lame Owner as such would more likely be seen as an easy touch and could be sold anything at all.

A very good summation of the comparison vessels.

09, one of european brands mentioned in this thread. (Not me personally, ftr) I readily admit to not monitoring these things, but did things really "stabilized" as much since then?

Well, that's such an obvious thing I didnt even bother to mention it, because it's not even remotely yacht-speicific ))

I'm a little bit afraid to put that up, especially from my position of limited industry knowlege, but I would venture to say, in mega-projects like those, things never go 100%, and megayacht building definitely follows this. But there's a real wide array of stuff going wrong. A boat built not not Owner's liking because owner couldn't make up his mind is one thing. Same because his team and/or builder never really bothered is different. Bad pieces of furniture is different again, and yacht being converted to semi-submersible upon launch is yet entirely other.
Hence different measures are taken against those different problems - chartering for the former, choosing good team for the next and a competent and reputable builder for the latter, for instance. Obviously no single measure is all-encompassing, and as I said even with everything in order there is always some "stuff that just happens" on multi-year, multi-million, hundreds-of-people projects, but you do reduce the expected amount of that stuff with each smart move you make.

Ah, while we are at it, i forgot another thing:
e) "I'd like a crew to be minimal or below that" is much like "one and only yacht for life" a very common wish for every new owner.
And again it's a wrong concept one must rid himself of. Obviously you don't want "outsiders" in your "very private" space, we all get that. But it's imperative to realize that
- crew is what defines the quality of your onboard experience in the end,
- there's awful lot of those small things in need of doing onboard and
- crewing a yacht is not a day job.
What that means is you can't expect your crew to work 24/7 to the same "utilization" standarts you'd set for 8/5 or whatnot. People get tired, overworked, sick, after all - and your crewing must allow enough "spare" for all of that, so that a deckhand tripping and bruising his hand doesn't suddenly become an abrupt end of joyful voyage for a dumb loss of manpower to do necessary things.

By the same logic, do pay more attention to crew quarters then is "usual". People are just people, no supermen - ask yourself if you would like to be carried around and serviced aboard by a good group of well-rested people happy with their conditions or a tight overworked crew hot-bunking in their quarters, and build accordingly. Despite being on owner's side all my times (and generally keeping tight on paying for unnecessary stuff), this is one expense that absolutely should not be spared, for one's own sake. That isolated cinema or 6th guest cabin people squeeze in at the cost of crew quarters - they stand vacant most of the time. Unhappy crew - that's a matter of each and every single second.

Well said regarding crew, Arcanis. But still there's an enormous variety in owners: do they want clean bedsheets daily, do they want the boat washed down daily, do they eat most often in restaurants or on board (some even like to cook!)... Some owners may want a big boat for living space, but have lower expectations regarding service levels (and possibly sailing time). If they want to charter out the boat, the story is different, as people chartering a 50 m yacht have certain expectations regarding service levels. But if the OP intends to live aboard, I doubt he'll put the boat up for charter. Still, it's good to reserve the space, e.g. have the smaller crew housed in single cabins and use them as double cabins later if needed.

I also think that the 1 M/m figure is a stupidity that keeps on popping up. I even suspect some clients (wrongly) assume building in Northern Europe is too expensive and start building in China or Turkey without even asking for a proper quote at various yards. There are other yards than Feadship and Royal Huisman here too.

I had a good laugh at this one:

Bruno

Hi,

If thats the case ask De Vries, Lurssen, Abekings and Huismann for a price for a well appointed 50m motor yacht and see what change you get with everything factored in including entertainment, tenders and toys spares and tools crockery.

On a larger scale I have recently seen offers for a 90m yacht from three of the big names in Europe the range in price was 135 to 150m Euro. This works out to approx 1.5 to 1.66m a metre.

Ok, that's exactly what I worked with. And... it's not pleasant.

As I wrote, "pay and forget" is a great way to pay... well. Sure if you just ask for a full quote that't what top-brand European builders charge. Then - you go into details. And it quickly turns out that the real shipbuilding there is well below 1m/1m even for those - the rest comes from
a) the "fancy" part and
b) the "screw you" part.
I seem to have failed evading the second part, cuz it's obviously a less then pleasant topic. But when I see detailed quotes where the basic stuff is listed at double market price, I really stop wondering. And it does happen, a lot.

So first, you have a good boat, well-equipped, quality built, but no gold plating so far. And that's cheap - surprisingly so (but you can't really get that boat in that form, you gonna be up-sold at every corner). Then you want $500k home theater components, builder charges you $800k for those and $400k for installation. You are quoted 3m for a "custom-built tender" (which is in every way comparable to $300k runaround boat). And so on and so on. Add to that multi-million art objects, real gold-plated furniture, reseller (with is often builder) "interest" on those and there you are, racing to 2m/m.

I'm not saying all of those charges are dishonest or unnecessary, but many clearly are. In effect, prices for 60+m megayachts had long became more akin to real estate - where you pay for all kinds of untanglible stuff like "location" and "style" rather then raw cost to engineer and build + builder margin. Besides, few real top-brands have every right to charge their huge premium for the fact the don't do submerible conversions even when not properly supervised.

So you may pretty simply get a quote, pay and have your yacht. Or you can put serious effort in assembling your team, negotiating and shopping around, and get it cheaper. Time and effort Vs money. I can understand that. But I really think it shouldn't be all messed together - dare I suggest speaking in just a little more detailed terms, like "600k/1m + whatever fancy stuff you want on top of that"?

P.S. I think "true megayachts" e.g. those above 70m, give or take, are a different story again - for their universally unique nature and unique nature of their buyers. Someone aiming at 50 meters in my opinion is way more likely to decide his time and effort worthy of 10-15m difference he could end up with then someone aiming at 80, even for 20+m. But then again, got no experience with the latter.

My point is twofold:
1. There are other "quality Nthn European yards" than the four you mention here above.
2. It makes no sense to rate prices per m LOA. It would be more logical to give an indicative price per GT (volume) or per ton displacement.

Of course you can get such figures from some yards for some boats. What bothers me is that it has become some sort of "rule of thumb", which may steer people away from having a proper look around.

Bruno

And still the bottom line is, get a good designer and the cost is an investment...

Hi,

Couldn't agree more especially if this applies to both the Naval Architect and the Stylist - both key components of a successful project team.

Ask Lurssen to build you a new one the same without the gold door handles, you will get a surprise at the cost.

One of the 60m Bardenfleth boats was doing the rounds a year or so ago part finished at Euro 55m plus 20 for the interior was the low end of the bid from a co in NZ.

Two extreme prices for what is a well used tool for the chefs, the cheap Home Depot one will sure work for a while but will it last the distance - I doubt it.

You will often find when things like this fail it is at a time when it is needed the most and the new one is either a different shape or requires some other major changes to work.

And the fact that many times you have to cut a hole in the side of the boat, or remove doorways to get it out, then put it all back together once the stove is back in. A galley on the yacht is the same as a restaurant kitchen and it sees as much use typically, so you need quality commercial appliances in it. The Crew eats 3 meals a day and the guests eat another 3 meals a day typically, plus making bread, pastries, and desserts and one can see how an oven gets a lot of use.