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Yachts over 24 meters required to meet IMO TIER III engine emissions next year.

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Capt J, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Not that big of a deal unless you re signing the checks
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Now I m confused. The article linked above states

    “The new Tier III regulations apply to any vessels that moor or may pass through North America, the US Caribbean, the Baltic Sea, the North Sea, and all future NOx Emission Control Areas”

    great... what about vessels running in the Med or in the Middle East or the Far East?
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Do you not realize all of the big Euro builders in this size have the exact same issues? Kind of hard to scrap a design you dumped $18 million dollars in R+D on. I know of several manufacturers pulling out of that size segment for next year, because they simply can't make existing designs that they have dumped Millions of dollars on, work.

    "
    Viking is not the only yacht builder rallying efforts for an extension of the Tier III emissions regulations for smaller yachts. Another of Bluewater’s brand partners, Princess Yachts in Plymouth, England is also working to maintain viability of their larger yachts including the ‘M’ and all-new ‘X’ series. Several more European superyacht builders are also standing alongside Princess and Viking in this effort including Ferretti Group, Overmarine, Monte Carlo Yachts, Sanlorenzo Yachts and Sunseeker.

    IMO Tier III standards have already been in force for over four years on larger superyachts and commercial vessels that exceed 500 gross tons. The smaller yacht segment of 90-150′ was initially spared from the regulations and given a 5-year window to work on compliance measures. In 2016, it was believed that exhaust treatment systems would become more advanced, even to the point of being integrated into the engines. However, the technology is not there yet and simply won’t be ready by the January 2021 deadline."

    https://bluewateryachtsales.com/new...ompliance-leaving-yacht-builders-in-the-wind/
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Businesses always like to play the blame game. Viking can claim all they want but they're not laying off 300 people over this, they don't build much in the size range and have very few employees doing so.
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    It's called adapting, which you either do in business or you go out of business over time. The two US builders mentioned don't sell many boats in that range. If they did, they'd have solutions planned.
  6. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    OK, so you and pacblue, HOW DO YOU PLAN ON REFILLING THE DEF TANK????????? Have either you or Pacblue thought of that on a sub 150' yacht that can only carry so many gallons (plus it has a shelf life of 6 months). Any tankage on a 120' or under, planing MY or SF is going to be in place of existing fuel or water capacity. So let's say you have a 1500 gallon DEF tank in a 90' MY or 95' SF, you're only going to have a range of 500-1000NM's maximum on the DEF tank. So WHERE and HOW do you refill it? Do you take a day off every other day of cruising and have a vendor deliver the DEF in 5 gallon buckets at a marina you may make it to, have your crew cart 200-300 5 gallon buckets down the dock and somehow miraculously spend the entire day pumping/pouring it into the DEF tank? Then what do you do with all of the buckets or barrels? What marina's are going to install stainless steel DEF tanks and stainless steel pipes and run them to the fuel dock at the tune of $100,000 or more to fuel what, maybe 4-10 yachts per year with DEF? What about running the boat to the Bahamas and spending more than a week, what about the Carribbean???? On a 150' and above, you have the tankage and range and can have a semi fuel trailer of it shipped to you, or meet you at a commercial port, but how do you figure this is going to work on a 90-120' yacht that does not have that option? It's not, it's not feasable, and not an option. I haven't noticed any Flying J truck stops on the water.

    DEF fluid is nothing more than the same snake oil that Ethanol is. Does it clean up emissions a little yes, but at what cost???? The carbon footprint to manufacture it and transport it, is far higher than the emissions it would save on yachts. Also, you lose 10-20% fuel efficiency, so burning more fuel per mile.

    Now, you have all of these builders who have spent huge R+D money into 90-120' yachts and there is simply nowhere to fit the catalytic converters, the DEF tank, or the weight of the system in existing builds, and nobody spending R+D money to try to design a new yacht to install this flawed system into.

    Viking has produced 5 92' Sportfish per year of the 92' since 2015, they're on hull 22 now, and I am not sure how many 93' Motoryachts per year, so yes, I can see them laying off 300 employees due to this IF they're doing that kind of volume. A lot of different builders aside from Viking, are simply getting out of building 90-120' and that will have large ramifications in the yachting industry. THERE IS NO SOLUTION currently on planing yachts in the 90'-120' size range.
  8. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    Truck stops all have dedicated pumps for DEF. Just as you bought fuel for your trip to St Louis in barrels from a distributor. Larger marinas will have to sell it the same way. It's not a big deal.

    IT WORKS. It's been working for the trucking industry for ten years. Buying new engines or not is the owners choice.
    Personally I don't care what Viking does. That's their decision to put hundreds of people out of work, because they didn't plan on this. Like I said before the info has been available for YEARS.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  9. yr2030

    yr2030 Senior Member

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    Adapt or get out of the way for someone more enterprising.
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Has any organization calculated how many boats between 26 and 50 meters are delivered each year, figured an average fuel burn annually, determine the emission level and compared this number to the massive amount of pollution emitted by counties like China, India, Pakistan, Russia and Central Asian nations?

    I guess not.

    the low volume is why the technology hasn’t matured and become usable and affordable.

    comparing to trucks is completely irrelevant. I don’t think any road going trucks use 2000+ hp engines used in the boats affected but this regulation.
  11. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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  12. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    The trucking industry had loads of trouble with the def mandate and still do. The def motors are more complex and when not functioning properly go into limp mode. How would that work on a vessel???? I've lived the def nightmare with all my heavy equipment, for all of you cheering the mandate where is your personal history of dealing with this technology??? It's easy to applaud a solution like this until you live with it and all its psychotic episodes.
  13. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Urea consumption is approximately 3% of fuel consumption on the high side. Maybe lower but I don’t have the data in front of me.

    A 92 Viking SF has 4015 gallons of fuel. That’s only 120 gallons per one total burn of fuel, probably less in reality. And I haven’t researched if the regulations apply in all those hard to reach sportfishing paradises, may be a non-issue for them in the middle of no where.

    And you can actually gain fuel efficiency as they come out with new engine models that specifically design for it, approximately 5% in some of the presentations going around.

    So you will have marina based fuel docks stocking up, mobile delivery by water or land, whatever the entrepreneurs come up with.

    And remember, on the lower end the regulation starts at 24m for the Load Waterline. This is 78’ - 9” of waterline exclusive of bow rake and transom overhangs. Bow rake is 8’ - 9’ at least so now you are at 87’ - 9” overall. The only thing I see impacted on the machinery deck level is an aft crew quarter space or toy storage.
  14. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    IMO and the EPA have impact studies on all that. I have not seen them all, but they are the ones making the claims on emissions reductions. As I have said before, they have no sympathy towards who bears the cost (owners/operators) or jobs lost.

    That is not their main objective.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No fuel docks are going to be stocking DEF fluid for a very long time. The demand just isn't there. SO for a SF going to the far Bahamas to fish for 3 months do you fill the cockpit with 55 gallon drums of DEF that's going to rot in 6 months? The demand will be so little for it, I don't forsee fuel docks ever stocking it, except for a few. A lot different than the OTR trucking industry.

    There were plenty of studies on Ethanol too, and it's still being crammed down everyone's throats, but when you look at the real studies on it, just producing ethanol creates a larger carbon footprint.
  16. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    If they have DEF vehicles operating on any of the larger islands the supply chain has already started.
  17. Slimshady

    Slimshady Senior Member

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    Def diesels burn fuel to get a hot enough reaction chamber. They use alot more fuel. Been there done that with identical 40 ton john deere excavators. Pre def machines were 20% more fuel efficient than def machines. Shut them off a few times during a cleaning and they go into limp mode. JD mechanic has to come out and force a regeneration. Let's try that in crooked or san Salvador. Give me your opinions AFTER you've lived with it.
  18. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Well said. The Def mandate has played hell with heavy equipment and big trucks. Our 1 ton trucks have been doing pretty good with the DEF. So maybe the technology is advancing. But have had heavy equipment shut down with the DEF sensor not reading correctly (def tank full) and other problems relating to emissions. That wouldn’t work to well at sea. Don’t know if mandate would allow for a DEF override in a marine application. And definitely don’t pour the def into the fuel tank. That ruins the fuel system. It would be nice if government could be a little more nimble to accommodate issues such as this. But they paint with a very broad brush.
  19. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Another good point. The fuel consumption is definitely noticeably worse with the emissions “stuff”.
  20. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Some who have posted seem to adopt the position that screw business let them innovate and figure it out. But the mandates are not just costing the business. That cost is passed to the consumer. I am not referring to the person that can afford a new 90’+ boat. Look how much more our vehicles cost today. In this age of income disparity I think an analysis of what all of this is costing the poor and the working class would be revealing. I get it, if we destroy the earth the last thing we are going to worry about is profit, but as it looks right now we might destroy ourselves before the enviroment.