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Helicopters / Seaplanes on Yachts

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by mp-willow, Mar 16, 2006.

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  1. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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  2. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    you can fit a whole fleet of those ,in a shoe box.

    As to getting smoke by a chopper, no matter if you fly 777's of F-22 raptor's every pilot starts in a small single piston. ;)
  3. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    Nice find on the Picos. I liked the video, but the music was a bit much.:confused:
  4. Arniev

    Arniev Senior Member

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    Are you planning to buy a new S-76C++?
    I heard that Sikorsky Aircraft's employees are just coming back to work after six weeks on strike.
    There's about 60 helis on backorder, so if you plan to get a new one, it might take a while.
    :)
  5. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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  6. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    Nice little flier. As for the S-76C I am interested, but did not know they were out on strike. So I will have to look into this. I am only trying to collect as much information as posible now, to see what my options are.;)
  7. Energizer

    Energizer New Member

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    Lake

    Just to add another option, and to add some counter-opinions against the pro-helicopter posts, I'll express some considerations for this beauty:

    Lake 270 Turbo:
    1.jpg

    http://www.teamlake.com/

    With 270HP engine, you'll have in excess of 1000NM range with 2-3 passengers + a pilot. Its nowhere near the size of an S-61, but with the size of a cessna it may fit on even the smaller yachts, and the operating costs will be similar to that of a Cessna 172. However, the Lake performs more economically than a cessna, with considerable higher cruising speed. Given its short field performance, you'll easily land inside harbours and even golf courses if you are granted permission...

    Say you are 500NM offshore and you need to fly ahead of the yacht to reach shore. That will typically save you two days of waiting! A medium sized helicopter like the S-61 will typically cruise at 120NM/hour, making it over 4 hours hours of flight time (disregarding that the maximum range for S-61 is 450NM). However, most small sized helicopters like the Robinson R44, MD520N, Jet Ranger and similar yacht-size helicopters, cruises at 100NM/hour, but doesnt have more than 300-375NM range anyway.
    The Lake 270 will get you to the shore two days before the yacht, in just over three hours, and even have enough fuel to take you on sightseeing above town.

    If your yacht has a 12 knot cruising speed, it will cover 1000NM in 83 hours, or three and a half day. With a lake 270 on board, you can get on and off your yacht while it is way out in the middle of the ocean, in just six hours. A helicopter wouldn't be able to get you to shore before you're within a half day to a day of sailing.

    Most small seaplanes are developed with low aquisition cost in mind, and therefore equipped with reciprocating engine(s) and cheap-to-construct wings. If someone should desire to have "the cutting edge", they'd have to make an integration between seaplanes and jet engines, and swept wings to allow for higher cruising speeds. But I guess corrosion would put a quick end to such a project. Salt water is really tough on any aircraft.


    Photo-18.jpg
    ...You could fly from Seattle to Colorado, Utah, rocky mountains or Los Angeles in one flight. A helicopter would need either two or three fuel stops.
    Photo-03.jpg
    ...Or from outside of Bahamas to new york.
    Photo-04.jpg
    A similar lifting platform could be designed to allow easy loading and passenger entrance behind a swimming platform.

    The airplane weight is only 3000lbs fully fueled and ready to go, which means it could easily be lifted by a normal tender crane.

    Photo-01.jpg
  8. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    Lake

    Energizer.
    You make good points about range and speed. In some circumstances there'd be an advantage to the amphib. However, supply of clean avgas can be a real problem in many parts of the world. Jet fuel is available everywhere. Worst case, I don't even want to mention the off spec mix of fuels that I've seen burned in a turbine :)
    There is also one other real limitation. Ever try to rotate off a 3 foot chop?
    Helicopter, no problem, as long as the pad is clear.
  9. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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  10. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    Mossie Choppers

    Codger, that was a nice little sight. It is a fare cry from the S-76 or S-61. But you could have a bunch be nice to train pilots for Yacht landing. That might be an interesting job :p

    Lake> that seaplane dose have prommis but the 2-3 passangers is my concern. Also What is the wave max it is designed for? I have not looked but as said these little seaplanes are not good in chop or waves. The one think is they good get you out from a remote lagoon or bay and into the city. The wings would have to be folded unless I mised that? But you make great points. I like the pusher engine.

    I think the max range for the S-61 is longer, or can be when refirbished and with extra tanks as I am thinking of.
  11. Energizer

    Energizer New Member

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    You're both right that waves would be a major limitation for a small seaplane. So the only advantage is the range and ability to get from offshore and directly to your final destination in one flight, instead of taking a helicopter from your yacht to the nearest airport, then fly your jet to another airport close to your final destination, and then have another helicopter to take you the last leg to your...cabin or fishing trip or whatever. The wings on the Lake does not fold though.

    Wouldnt it be room enough for both a seaplane and a helicopter on a typical expedition 150ft+ yacht? The seaplane could be loaded on the lower aft deck with overhead cranes, while the upper aft deck would serve as "hangar roof" and helipad.

    And yes mp-willow, if you install fuel barrels in some of the passenger space, you'll have more range. That will reduce the number of occupants to maybe 7-8 as opposed to 10-14(19).

    There's also a military version of the Lake, with range of 1500NM and more rigid construction for use in military special operations and surveillance.
  12. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    Its a nice plane for its purpose but even that you posted a lot of numbers, you seemed to skip the most important. With full fuel whats its usefull load, and how fast does it fly. As any knows is easy to make something sound great when listing all the positives and forgeting the negaties. Like saves 2 days,when comparing to a 11 knot yacht.It might fly 1000nm but not with a pilot and 3 people and & luggage or supplies.

    Just from what I know about singles I'd guess 150 to 175 mph, and 400 to 600 pounds load with full tanks.
  13. Energizer

    Energizer New Member

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    155 knots, which is, for its size and range, above average for GA airplanes.

    Payload 610lbs with full fuel tanks. That should be enough for 3 (2+1) average people and 85lbs of cargo.

    I didnt mention it in the post because all that information is available at the link I posted. But hey, I'm not affiliated with Team Lake, I just try to shed some perspective on the importance of range :)
  14. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    To have both the Seaplane and the Heli on board an expidition Yacht of say 150 ft or longer could work. The Lake would be a good pick for that, but at what other sacrafices? With both, you have a lot of space taken and also effects other water bortn tenders. With fuel prices as they are now, it will use more and have less space for tanks.

    As the lake is now, the non-folding wings would need to be changed and I still do not like the smal cabin. I am partial to trips with friends and also young kids are on my mind.;)
  15. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    I wanted to thank every one who posted here and hope we can keep going. I would like your thoughts on gargae designs?
    :)
  16. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    I think that being specific about exactly what the aircraft's mission will be would help.
    There are so many factors that have an effect on the choice. If it's private use day VFR only, then there's a broad choice. If there will be any paying passengers, even if indirectly, as part of a charter yacht operation the rules change.
    I've spent time in every civilian helicopter that Sikorsky has produced since and including the S55A. I recently kicked a soccer ball around in a S92. There is a good reason that there are so many S76 being used. They are proven and most of the quirks have been resolved. The S76 has spent a lot of time offshore and is maintainable in that environment. There are other helicopters out there that are used in the marine environment and I've seen the half full cases of Tri-Flow in the back that are used to keep some of them from turning in to expensive conglomerations of various oxides. I'm sounding like a Sikorsky cheerleader:) By the way, I'm not saying that everything except a Sikorsky is not up to the task.
    I see those nice photos of H pads on various yachts and wonder how the heck they manage to keep them looking that clean or is it verboten to take a pic anytime that any maintenance has been done...
    As to sea planes... Do you really care if it'll stay aloft for 5 hours? Can your passengers' bladders last 5 hours?
    On board hangars/maintenance facilities. I've never been inside one. Some of the photos that have been published showed everything from spacious complete facilities to one that I think was in the bow, lowering after the blades had been folded but still looked like there was room to carry out routine washdowns and maintenance.
  17. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    Thanks Codger, here is what I am thinking! S-76C would be used for transport to and from Yacht for owner and also could be used for Charters. It would have dedicated pilot to help maintain while underway.

    I also like a S-61 for Utility work or to be a dual passanger and cargo aircraft. If used it like the S-76 would have a pilot who would stay with it and would be for privite and charter use. I like it because of the amphibian qualities that let you have more options. Also the MI-14 fits here. Both are older and would need to be rebuild, yes, but I think there are a good number of S-61s out there. I am slo trying to get information on, fitting floats for other helicoptors.

    AS for a garadge it would be full beam at the back like Octipus, I have been told that would be a better solution. This will give better protection as the Yacht will be a world cruiser and operate in high lattiutes.

    The over all thoughts for any helicoptor is a useable range of 500 to 600 nm with a passanger space for 8-10 people plauss crew.

    This I hope has been what you wanted? As for the seaplanes, well I was thinking of a PBY type size, would have a toilete for long flights ;)
  18. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    The S61 requires 2 crew in any jurisdiction that I've ever seen it flown.
    Finding one in decent rebuildable shape is going to be pretty tough. You are also looking at building a heck of a structure for it to land on, upwards of 20,000 pounds with fuel before any kind of a load.
    PBY is one seriously large aircraft as well..... Hope that you've got friends out at Victor or someone else at that level to keep those round engines running. I'd check and see if there's ever been an STC done for plumbing. Otherwise it's portapotty and keep the vents open. Finding checked out flight crew for a PBY will also be a challenge. I don't even want to think about trying to find an insurance company to cover it for liability without having seriously experienced crew for it.
    Piaggio built some amphibs that some people swear by although I've never been near one.
  19. mp-willow

    mp-willow Senior Member

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    S-61 and PBY!

    Thanks for the help, I am looking for information on a lot of different, points, but one that I like is amphibian ability and be able to take 8 to 10 passangers.

    I know the S-61 is harder to find, have seen some in Yuma AZ, and think that might be an option. As for the PBY that might be a lot harder. I know the S-61 needs a crew of two, and I like the rugged build of it. The chopper would be flying in all weather, and land on water. Other options would be the Ch-53, if the military has surpuss available, or the Mi-14, but getting one out of Russia and finding crew would be tricky.

    Yes I like big choppers, but I have not found an anphibian that can match them. Maybe a bell 429 with floats? I am know that the surch will take time and investment.

    Any other thoughts?:eek:
  20. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    Any Russian helicopter and crew can be sourced in Fujairah. You could probably find a few within a day or two just asking around... The point though is that insuring the aircraft and registering it would be a story in it's own right :)