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USS John S. McCain - Collision in Singapore

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by olderboater, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    You have to face the facts, in times of no real defined war, especially on our soil, peacekeeping/global policing becomes in reality a government jobs program with the benefit of returning whatever level of security in exchange. Shipbuilding, defense contractors like Lockheed, etc. , it is about jobs and new technologies funded by tax payers. Haven't seen a better system yet and the NATO experiment has not reached levels that were promised for decades.
  2. bayoubud

    bayoubud Member

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    A very expensive jobs program with no end in sight. Somehow the defense contractors have convinced congress to fund their research programs for weapons and equipment desired by those in charge. Then the contractors get those sweet open ended change order contracts and because the Pentagon does not really know what they want. No penalty when planes(F35) and ships do not perform. Have read the Navy accepted USS Ford in in uncompleted condition because of cost over runs and way past completion date and will now start sea trials(maybe five years and billions more) and finish out fitting ship, for operations, but it does have "gender-neutral" heads. No telling what we will have invested in this mega carrier when they get through experimenting. Surely all this mega spending is affecting the Navy budget for daily operations all over the world, especially when this big boy gets up and running. Also, it would be good to transfer some of that NATO funding to our Navy for navigation training.
  3. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The NATO issue is more of getting everyone aligned to spending 2% of their GDP on Defense, sharing the burden of global "defense".. Theoretically, then the US could ease up on our own defense spending and look for other programs to improve, such as infrastructure, roads, etc., basically other government job programs:

    https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/02/daily-chart-11

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...expenditure-in-2016-infographic/#4405c6e943f3

    Interesting that the US outspends all countries #2 thru #8 added up collectively! Another way to look at it is to see how hard Russia tries to keep up with their own meager economy, by GDP:

    http://www.businessinsider.com/12-c...centage-of-gdp-2017-7/#12-jordan-431-of-gdp-1
  4. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Let´s just not start to discuss the US ambitions all over the globe and the related costs or whether these ambitions are legit. That probably won´t benefit the understanding and discussion culture here. And if someone from the "rest" of the world chimes in and questions what that fuzz with military presence all over the globe is about and maybe what role NATO is playing ... Well, better not discuss about it here. Might end up ugly...
  5. bayoubud

    bayoubud Member

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    If we are paying their bills and protecting their stuff, then they have no say. I do see your point, no more discussion.
  6. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    No one raised any issue about "legit" ambitions. The rest of the world can chime in, we do enjoy our free speech.

    I have been to many a global Naval conference where most governments are represented and can tell you that they are all like minded and complicit in the promotion of each of their agendas, some common, some national, and many in partnership, just the scale varies.
  7. rcrapps

    rcrapps Senior Member

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    Maybe a new thread would be required for added discusions on global or world security discusions. In our understandable excitment, were getting off topic.
  8. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Seeing such an accumulation of tragic incidents certainly has to lead to a number of critical questions.

    Do navy vessels really benefit from deactivation of AIS signals in terms of safety and strategic efficiency or is it rather a systematic case of negligence in crowded areas?
    One certainly feels reminded of the old lighthouse-joke in which you see much more confidence than competence. Any similarities to reality?
    Hmm, at least the incidents of the last month demand an in-depth evaluation of command chain structures and comparison to civil shipping situations.
    Probably the command chain has gotten too complex and is too much focused on long-distance combat situations and there is a need to establish a parallel, more simplified structure for safe navigation alongside common civil marine traffic?

    We´ll most probably never see publications on the structural issues that may lead to critical close-distance situations in navigation and, worse, the accidents of the last few month.
    Plenty of room for specuations, very few verified facts...
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  9. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    @PacBlue: Maybe I misunderstood your statement containing the term global "defense" ;)
    I did not want to find any sarcasm in it, but the " " supported that assumption at least a little... :D
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    regardless for the reasons behind navy ships not broadcasting AIS I can't understand why they would not at least receive the signals and take appropriate action. If we can have collision avoidance in our small )compared to US Navy vessels) boats why can't the navy use it? I mean... when I cross the stream my furuno shows me all the data needed to avoid a collision with the large ships I have to cross. I can see where they and where I will be 15' away... and that furuno system probably cost less than a pentagon purchased 10 piece wrench kit!
  11. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    @Pascal: Could well be because you´re the AIS operator, radar operator, radio operator, officer on watch, captain and helmsman in one person and don´t have to wait for an information running ten steps up and down the command chain two or three times before a situation is recognized, analized, a decision taken and executed, problems recognized and corrected. Navigating safely demands a short hierarchical structure and direct communication...
    Besides that there´s allways a last source of information for direct decisions you can´t use when you are in the tactical operations room. It´s called window.
    Having an overly complex command chain leads to a lack of mental agility over the whole process. Just a theory, I´d like to hear if others consider it valid.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    They receive and see AIS broadcasts, they simply don't send out AIS information themselves.
  13. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    On another forum,a advanced computer forum ,I participated teaching Thermodynamics (phase change cooling of pc's) electrical and electronic engineering, they started a political section that went to hell fast. I think the same would happen here at YF

    The Fitzgerald and McCain may have been @ anchor, explaining why they couldn't get out of the way. While not shooting down North Korea's missiles with missiles . North Korean missiles may be falling into the sea or blowing up in the boost stage because USA destroyers employed a LAWS weapon system that disrupts the electronics and missile integrity.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  14. Chasm

    Chasm Member

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    At anchor, in a TSS zone... Yeah, right...

    That said, after reading this article from 2009, published by the US Naval Institute, such a splendid demonstration of Navigational competency does sound about on par for the US Navy. :rolleyes:
  15. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Here is a good read that really addresses the serious issues facing the USN hierarchy in creating competent mariners/navigators:

    http://********.com/kings-orders-u-...139915405&mc_cid=d4a9fa8392&mc_eid=2058f68ae7

    Not allowing those with the most time on ships and in ship navigation to have the strongest voice when addressing ship/fleet issues is a big mistake and needs to change to affect the entire USN Fleet culture.
  16. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Most probably they should separate tactical situation analysis from nautical awareness a little bit more. Seems as if these two operational aspects interefere on an unhealthy Level.
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I can't access the link...... spell out the .com part with some spaces.
  18. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Strange? I have NOT been receiving any notices about new replies to this subject thread?
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Sorry, maybe shouldn't have posted that link, it is a common commercial marine site, you can google the general topic.
  20. Captain Zemo

    Captain Zemo Member

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    This happened in one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world, although you need watchstanders and communication to avoid colliding with other ships. Visual means for collision avoidance would be the best. We just have to wait for the investigation report. It was reported to have a steering failure on the McCain? Some of the vessel tracking videos are interesting with a sharp turn to Port from the Alnic MC. Did the Alnic MC get cut off? I read somewhere an interesting quote. Do you want to take out the US Navy? Well then just sell your destroyers and buy a container ship.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017

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