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Real Charts and Paper Charts.

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Kafue, Jan 18, 2016.

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  1. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Real Charts
    This thread is a result of the recent loss of a 74’ Spencer.

    I forget how many sea hours and Nautical Miles I have as Skipper of my own vessels up to L.W.L 75 feet.
    Same as I forget how many dives I have had in many the Oceans. Last logged in at approx 2,500.
    Rescue Diver. (no big deal as it is ONLY P.A.D.I., had to give UP the Other One due to Corporate Piracy.)

    Yet: I am not close to being as qualified as those I respect.
    There is my humility card.

    If you cannot navigate with Paper Charts, learn.
    If you plan on any offshore trip, check the paper chart.
    Whilst underway, keep the Paper Chart as a reference and MARK the hazards on your Chart Plotter.

    I have first hand experience of the "Rock Out of Nowhere" whilst in the "safe" waters.
    THIS IS the ONLY place these accident occur. Same as the only time a diver gets lost.
    It is NEVER in the place or dive where you are prepared for the event.

    As Soon as You Feel Confident: Begin to be Concerned.
    As you become Confident: Worry.
    When you Argue You are Correct: PANIC!
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I love how paper chart crusaders use any accident to argue for paper charts. You don't know what kind of charts the captain was using. Perhaps they were paper. Maybe even out of date paper. We don't even know charts of any sort had anything to do with this accident since as of now we don't know the cause.

    Paper charts are neither inherently better or worse than electronic. They are almost always less current. Now the ability to read electronic my be limited by your monitors. We have monitors as large as paper charts. The point I would make with charts is to use more than one source. We use at least two electronic charts at all times plus an electronic version of the most current paper chart. We print out paper when we want to look at it, but that's not often. We also make notations in advance on the charts we'll be using for the next leg.

    Also the inference that those of us who prefer electronic, don't know how to use paper is entirely wrong. We know how. All our captains know how. When this topic surfaced elsewhere yesterday, I pulled up a list of all updates to paper charts in the area we were navigating in the last 60 days. It was a long list. So if we were going to use 60 day old paper charts, the first task would be to go to them and make all those updates. That's why when we do use paper, we print it the day or two before and only have one day updates.

    As to your analogies with diving, I don't dive so no nothing about them.
  3. ychtcptn

    ychtcptn Senior Member

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    I'm a big believer in using paper charts, that being said they are almost always being used in conjunction with the electronic chart plotter, which is responsible for most of the navigating duties.
    Seeing as you brought this up in conjunction with the Spencer grounding, I think using paper charts on this type of vessel is not practible and most likely more dangerous than electronic. That boat is most likely good for 35+ knots, trying using and keeping up with your position at that speed on paper.
    Today's electronic charts are more accurate and up to date than paper charts, as older boater eluded to.
    Today's navigation world is getting away from paper and going to all electronic paperless bridges with dual ECDIS displays.
    Now don't get me wrong, I still use and enjoy paper, nothing makes my day more than turning the chart plotter off and making today's youth use the paper!
  4. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    olderboater, It's very early A.M in Australia for me, so I will err on the side of THAT before replying in KIND to your aggressive response.
    For the record, I did not call you or any other member out. It is a reasonable post:
    However, should you feel NOTED by my post: It was based on; Experience...not how much money I pay my CREW to think!
    Cheers and have a happy day!
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have mentioned earlier, I use paper charts exclusively to plan my route. You get both detail and a large picture at the same time. Chartplotters offer either/or but not both. I take my waypoints off of the paper chart and then plug those waypoints as a route into the chartplotter or GPS. Electronic charts are made from the paper charts, so to say that electronic charts are updated more frequently is foolish. Also, paper charts have the established routes on them, that everyone uses, with the waypoints and there is no guess work or sunken boat that nobody knows about on the electronic route you chose 1/8 mile over to the side of the established route. I do watch the chartplotter all day and use it as a guide to confirm my paper chartwork is accurate, but I don't use the chartplotter to plot a course.

    Honestly, I have seen many places where electronic charts are off by anywhere from 500'-1/4 mile. How many times have you come into a port, been exactly between the channel markers and the chartplotter shows you going across land? Well guess what, the entire electronic chart is off by that much, everywhere. If I followed what my chartplotter was telling me in Galliot Cut in the Exumas it would have me going 250' over from the channel, directly across the sand bar. There are many other instances I've found major errors on chartplotters that would result in a grounding........

    And really, as for updates to paper charts. 99.8% of all area's a 5 year old paper chart would be accurate. Rocks don't move, most sandbars are in the same spot, reefs don't move, depths usually stay the same in most places, channel markers don't get moved around too often except in a very few places like inlets that shoal constantly etc. Occasionally the direction of channels, the channel markers are moved, but obviously I use visual channel markers over paper charts when coming in an inlet, just look at a chart to confirm they're the right markers (number etc.)
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
  6. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    I like to have paper charts.
    I feel comfortable plotting on paper and tracking my position on paper.
    I use the chartplotter to confirm my situational awareness and projected course.

    Regarding updating, I don't constantly update my paper or my chartplotter.

    How many of us feel confident plotting a course (current, set, and drift) using paper charts and a magnetic compass?
    How many regularly practice this perishable skill?

    It is so easy to plot a course on the chartplotter and hit "NAV" on the autopilot
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    We update for every trip. We print new updated paper charts current to that time. We download the updates to all electronic charts. We also can pull the paper charts up electronically to a monitor as large as we want, so they're 100% or even enlarged. As ychtcptn alluded, we do have dual ECDIS displays and we are trained in their use. I have nothing against paper charts, unless they're years outdated and the user isn't reviewing notices. I've seen people terribly confused on the ICW with old paper charts they were given when someone else bought new and I've seen someone equally confused with Garmin charts that came on the boat which he'd just purchased used. They were apparently original to the original 20 year ago purchase.

    One thing I'd note too, that compass calibration and checking GPS accuracy against other sources are important whether electronic or paper.

    As to Kafue's comment about paid crew, I'd note that both my wife and I are 200 Ton Masters and do a large percentage of the navigation and taking the helm. In the last three years we've covered over 50,000 nm. We were probably at the helm for about 20,000 of that time but involved in it all.

    We know the chances of any single chart to be off so we do pilot with our eyes open, using all equipment and using more than one chart system along with more than one GPS.

    I just feel that taking this accident and blaming it on the lack of use of paper charts is a bit of a stretch. I don't know what charts if any the captain was using, if he was steering or on autopilot, if he was sober or drunk, if he was awake or asleep, if he was alert or distracted, if he was healthy or had a heart attack. I also don't know where exactly he ran aground to know if it's marked on paper, electronic, all or none.
  8. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    OB,

    I dont think anybody is placing blame on current incident.

    And it seems like you are quite experienced and have a reasonable and safe method of navigation and you have mitigated risk to minimal.

    I think Kauff is pointing out the dangers (owners and professionals) of what he perceives is overly relying on electronics and getting chartplotter blindness.

    For me, my chartplotters are one tool in my situational awareness as I navigate.

    I am constantly confirming position and course with GPS, chartplotter, paper charts, radar, depth, aotopilot, magnetic compass, AIS.

    I like to see all the data matching from the different sources, including D/R.

    Oh, btw, one of my pet peeve paper chart limitations: it seems like the "seam", or "next page" page if using a chart book is always in the wrong spot!
  9. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    olderboater, It is a straightforward, unambiguous post, meant in a constructive way.
    Should you feel challenged by this, perhaps you need to look inwardly, not strike outwardly
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I use whatever means are available and that will include paper, electronic and radar. Bottom line is that there isn't a one size fit all solution and any is only as good as the person at the helm.

    Some charts are good, some charts are bad. J mentioned Galliot cut in the exuma, I ve been thru it many times day and night and the Garmin Blue Chart app on my iPad is spot on. That said, no way in hell woudl I attemot coming in a cut in the bahamas at night relying on any chart unless I have been thru it before and have a previously recorded track

    Another example... Bimini. The furuno nav net always puts us 200' to the east over south bimini when coming in. Yet the garmin blue chart app is spot on.

    I typically rely on the electronic charts but normally cross check with paper.

    For planning, I use my iPad and garmin blue charts but I always zoom in an out to check on dangers. I really like Garmin blue charts as it includes ****** ******* data so dangers like missing markers, wrecks, shoals, are almost always marked.

    As to the spencer accident, I posted a chart extract on the other thread of where the accident is reported to have occured. If you look closely there is a slight chart stitching problem at the north side of th pass. That is a big red flag which alone woudl have prompted me to avoid that pass or do more research.

    The only way I would blame th eCharts for that accident is that it likely caused the operator to be overconfident of his ability to use that pass. But in the end, he is the one, and the only one, to blame.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I don't feel challenged by it. I simply disagree with it's basic premise as I read it, which is saying one must use paper charts and implying they are somehow more "real" than other charts. That's all. You stated your opinion. I stated mine.
  12. Trinimax

    Trinimax Senior Member

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    Another useful item to have on-board, that is sometimes overlooked is a good up to date cruising guide for the area that you would be travelling in. The cruising guide that I have for the southern Caribbean outlines and describes the best approach and the hazards etc for entering and leaving most of the major ports and bays. i am not saying to rely solely on a guide for navigation, but it will be a helpful tool.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You're right and even sometimes marina web sites give you details of the best entry. Another source that we're never hesitant to seek is local knowledge. Often from marina's and the best if in doubt is tow captains. It's especially helpful if there have been recent storms or disturbances.
  14. 61c40

    61c40 Member

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    The prudent mariner will not rely solely on any single aid to navigation!
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I ve had a few close calls using marina local knowledge as often they don't really grasp the draft issues large boats have to deal with. Often you ll hear "xx feet is no problem, we get XXX all the time"

    Useless unless you know the draft.
  16. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Local knowledge is two edged blade, for sure. I have copies of books written by sailors who have travelled the entire coast I use and their advice on particular bar crossings, reefs and picking line of leeds is invaluable.
    Thanks to the many sail boat skippers for these books.
    Then there are the out wide waypoints that the good fisherman gives you, but you are not expecting a huge breaking wave that closes in on your lure spread, seemingly out of nowhere! The sonar runs from 15 fathoms to 1 and you remember the tide and the reef (plus old wreck) that makes the "secret" spot so good.