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How much vacation time?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by reelchaos, Mar 28, 2016.

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  1. reelchaos

    reelchaos New Member

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    Hi all, I was just wondering what kinda of leave time other boats do for crew. We started off with 4 weeks per year and the boat is private and only has the owner and his wife on most of the time. They will stay on for 3 weeks at a time and not move hardly at all. They are on a total of 15-20 weeks per year. They use it like a condo in summer time up north only for 3 day weekends. The Captain is asking for more paid leave after each year crew is onboard so was hoping I could get some opinions. Thanks
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'd listen to the Captain. Let me explain my attitude toward crew vacation first. Good crew is hard to keep because once they get beyond the excitement of cruising to different places, it's a job that keeps them away from home and prevents developing a real home life and relationships. I don't know the size of your crew, but in my world, if the owner and wife are on 15-20 weeks per year, then I'd try to let the crew rotate and share the remaining time with half on and half off.

    I'm going to compare to other jobs for a moment. Someone working on another job with four weeks vacation and no holidays would be working 240 days a year. Now, I consider anytime a crew member is away from home that is a work day. Some work days they have assignments, others they're just there. But in the 20 weeks, they're working 140 days. That leaves 220 days and I think working 110 of them is reasonable. I know that sounds outrageous as they'd end up with 10 weeks or so off in a year.

    Let's talk commercial a moment. It's very popular to work 28 on and 28 off. That is 26 weeks off a year.

    I think recreational boat owners and captains really need to look at things like rotational crew members. We have more crew than we use at any given time so they all get time home and truly off. It's work to me even if the boat is sitting in Newport and their only assignment is keeping their eye on it and minimum cleaning. They aren't home, don't have freedom to be where they want to.

    So, with that, if the captain is recommending a fifth week and thinks that's appropriate, then I'd give it, while recognizing they're still working very heavy schedules. I would probably look at even more now or in the future.

    Others can speak as to what other owners do. I just think what is traditional in the Yacht Industry is excessive and not at all conducive to keeping people in the industry. The turnover in the industry is very high compared to other industries. We can say, "that's the nature of the industry" or we can address some of the shortcomings. Some of my best crew was tired of the traditional industry and that's what made them available. As to younger crew, I hope to be able to offer them a long term career that also affords them a personal life at home as well.

    If you want to address how your current setup is working look at turnover, or better, look at employee retention. If you're not retaining at least 70% of your employees from year to year, then I think that's a problem, either in your hiring or your treatment. My target is 85-90%.

    I fully expect many traditionalists to tell me how insane my thoughts are. All I can say is it's working very well for us. Three and a half years since we hired our first crew member and two years plus since we hired most of them. We haven't had one to leave yet.
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I don't know what size the boat is or how many crew it has. On a large motor yacht we run with the senior crew ( Capt, Chief Off, Chief and 2nd Eng, Purser, ETO) on full rotation 2 months on 2 months off,then it tapers off to 3 on one off and then 5 on one off. Flights are paid in both directions and insurance covers time on and off the boat.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    By tapering off you mean those holding lesser positions?
  5. reelchaos

    reelchaos New Member

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    Thanks for the replies. The boat is 43m and runs 9 crew. The service is not silver and the owner not demanding but between the guests being on, yard periods and just the normal keeping up with the boat the crew seem exhausted and as well they should be. The crew quarters are horrible on this boat, very tight. Turnover is not high because the boat is newer, its beautiful and the owner is great.. The dept heads are reaching 2 years. I dont think the owner will do a rotation but I was thinking of asking him to add paid leave after a certain amount of time, 6 months, 1 year???
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Yes
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'm confused by the numbers. You say a crew of nine for a 141 foot boat that is in use about 140 days a year. The crew is given 28 days a year off. What do they do that other 97 days, when the boat is not in use and they're "working". It seems to me they're being kept on the boat when not needed. During the 225 days a year the boat isn't in use, it would seem half a crew is more than enough. Just that would give each crew member 105-110 days a year off after travel. That is 15 weeks as opposed to 4 or 5.

    There is a fallacy in the thinking of many owners that when they're not aboard that time really isn't work or is very light work as what could be better than to be on a yacht at an exotic spot. Well, being at home could be. Time off and vacation, in my opinion, is when where you are and what you're doing is 100% up to you. If the crew is only getting 28 days a year of leave, then that's working 297 days a year which is the equivalent based on five days a week of 59 weeks a year.

    It seems the owner is requiring them to stay on the boat when they really aren't needed that much, just because he feels it fits normal work weeks. Well, normal work weeks in any other business isn't 7 days a week.

    You say turnover isn't high. How many people have left in the first two years. If the number is more than one a year, then I think it's high. More than two, very high.

    Then you toss in horrible crew quarters. I find that very disturbing. No time off, on the "road" all the time, cramped and horrible living quarters. I don't know the configuration of the crew cabins but many are like living in a prison cell. College dorm rooms have far more space. On our 130' boat with a normal crew of 7, we only have 3 most of the time in the crew area designed for 5. We dedicate one stateroom to crew and often make two available for crew when not needed by guests. Yes, a great owner makes up for some of it, but ultimately if an owner thinks four or five weeks off a year is being great, then their exhaustion will take over. Exhaustion leads to sadness over job, leads to anger.

    Maybe he should expand the crew so each could have more time off.

    We never stay consecutively on the boat more than 6 to 8 weeks, normally 6. Then we fly home for 3 weeks or so. We fly all but 2 crew members home and of the 21 days we're home, then two groups of two each are on the boat half that time.

    If the boat is in the yard, how much crew do you need? I wouldn't think much.

    In my opinion, four weeks a year off, five weeks a year off, either is woefully inadequate. The only reason that can exist is that much of the industry does such. However, let me ask you this? When given a choice between that and something like K1W1 outlines and something like our requirements, which do you think crew will choose?

    Now I must ask of the time on the boat. What is their work schedule like during that time. Do they get one or two days a week "off duty?" What is their work day? Do they get at least 10 hours rest in every 24 hour period and 77 hours rest in every 7 day period? Or are they on duty 16 hours a day? Do you pay overtime for time in excess of 8 hours a day?

    To your credit, you're asking the question. As I said, many owners would strongly disagree with my philosophies. They'd disagree with the pattern K1W1 describes. However, I see the exodus of young people from the industry, I see the level of alcohol abuse in the industry and I see those willing to take a 50-70% reduction in income to be able to spend more time at home. How can you have relationships, build families, have normal lives, when away somewhere all but four weeks a year? What kind of life do we provide our employees who are also our traveling companions?
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2016
  8. Milow232

    Milow232 Guest

    OB your inbox here must be full of crew applications..:)
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    No, and we have no openings. We're small enough too that we've been able to do all our hiring without soliciting applications. We know related to boating some of our methods may or may not be good business, but boating isn't a business to us, it's all about pleasure. In many other ways we probably break every known rule of "yacht" ownership, but then we just do what works for us. As to our crew, they are all very valued employees but also very valued friends. There are a lot of very good experienced crew who would absolutely never want to work for us with the way we do things.
  10. cnvsback

    cnvsback Member

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    The industry in my opinion of time off is slowly moving in the direction that K1W1 has mentioned, rotations. I also agree with some points Olderboater makes but i've personally never heard of such paid time off in a "full time" position. I've worked for multiple owners, with different itineraries, benefits, PTO etc. When I accept a new position it has depended on exactly where i'm at in my career. Do I have 6 weeks of courses to do this year ? Have I been away from home the past three years with limited time home ? Is the salary on par ? What is the normal working schedule ? Questions like this I always prepare myself with so that when looking for my next position I can provide longevity, and deliver happily as promised in my department.

    Currently I have a truly South Florida based program which I desperately wanted after traveling all over the show the past 8 years. It took me 6+ months to find what I was looking for and a couple freelance jobs in the interim, but eventually the right thing came along. We work a normal 8-5 during the week and have weekends off providing we do not have owner and guests on. I go home almost every night, its amazing ! Our summer schedule is typically North East which I don't mind because I'm from there. Our winter schedule is South Florida, Bahamas. Which is also nice because after we end a trip we are right back to the US in our home slip.

    My experience previously though as far as vacation has been what seems to be the yachting industry standard of 2.5 days accrued per month. The whole other side of this is what is offered for schooling ? Some owners expect your vacation to be used as school. I've never experienced this first hand but have a few friends who have had to deal with it. If you have a few weeks of school to complete for a license upgrade or such I find it far easier to clarify this prior to hiring so there are no rocks unturned down the road. I think most owners like to know their crew are serious about their job and are happy to help them accelarate in their career which ever way that may be. I worked for one owner who would allow you to take any necessary time off for schooling paid as normal, then after one year from completion of the course he would reimburse your school expense. Other owners are willing to pay for school after a certain amount of time on board, and so forth.

    Honestly from what i've experienced there are so many variables to this question. To me some of the main things I feel it depends on are the particular program, owner, the vessel, and itinerary for what you receive on paid time off. All that being said we are working out rotation as we speak, it definitely seems the way the industry will be going. The commercial shipping industry has been this way and proven for a long time. I know my response is a bit scattered but I hope this helps.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Yours is the story I've heard so many times and attempted to address with our crew scheduling. You just couldn't have the life you wanted and be gone 11 months of the year. That's how we got two of our critical crew members.

    As to the schooling, that also shocked me to hear how various owners treated it. To me, crewing boats is a career which requires a skill and ongoing school. Many professions do and employers pay for the course and the time. I try to respect those who have chosen this profession and I want them upgrading and learning more. I actually require all crew to have continuing education beyond that required by law.

    I believe way too many yacht owners look down on their crews, think of them more as just hired help than as the professionals they are. Now I also know there are some great owners out there to work for.
  12. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    Sailors in the U.S. Navy would disagree with that statement.
  13. reelchaos

    reelchaos New Member

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    Thanks for all your opinions. It helps. I know its hard because each boat has a gazillion variables but It gives a good idea. I too have heard and use the 2.5 days per month but what happens when that crew member stays for 3,4 and 5 plus years? when does it change because right now we have someone approaching 3 years and 90 days paid leave is too much. I let crew take off for schooling and it doesnt go against leave as well. Does anyone ever experience crew that dont take all of their leave in a year because lets say they dont want to spend the money. If you do have that do you let them roll over the time into next year or is it use it or lose it? I have a stew with me for 7 years and she doesnt takea all her leave cuz shes very homely and doesnt want to fly all the way home each time. After seven years I dont even keep track of her anymore and shes never asked or complained. Shes asks off and she gets it. This is another boat im talking about and we dont move very much at all.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Perhaps, but most in the U.S. Navy sign up for 4 years and they're out. Most crew are chasing the dream and money, and time off is not as critical. Then when they've established themselves and have set themselves up financially (however half blow it all), other things become more important. At about 30 or 35 years old time off and family starts to set in and now the job of providing is not just monetary but also because time related with their family.

    Now the one post by surfli13 really hits home for most. Yes he is full time, BUT with the boat being in his back yard. He has most weekends with family, he goes home and sleeps in his own bed most nights, it's like working a normal job. That really goes A LONG WAY to happiness once most people get older.

    I agree with Olderboater that every day a crew member is on board, is a work day, even if scheduled as a day off. You ALWAYS get wrapped up into doing something work related. Whether it's doing a project you didn't completely finish the day before (even though it could wait) or helping another crewmember out or whatever. You're still sleeping in small crew quarters and interacting with crew. One of the reasons I hate anchoring (for more than a night), is because I really like to walk down the dock for an hour or two every night and talk to OTHER people. Just get away from it all.

    I once had a really great full time Captains job about 10 years ago. I was a full time Captain and had a full time Mate on a privately owned 45' Cabo in Central America. The owner was like a father to me and I was making $4k a month cash and was in my mid to late 20's. We kept the boat better than new, and I won the billfish tournament the 2nd and 3rd week I was there (1st place boat, 1st place blue marlin, 1st place white marlin, top female angler, top male angler and also caught 3 wahoo). The owner set me up in a nice 2 story house, suv, etc. At first the Country was fun, the islands were beautiful, fishing was very good, and many things to do. After about 3 months I did everything there was to do on my time off, ruins, cave tubing, zoo's, etc. After that the country just sucked, all there was to do on weekends was a casino which I'm not into and restaurants and bars I wouldn't even go to if they were in the States. I gave him a 6 month commitment. I went home twice for 2 weeks at a time. But he docked me pay for the time I went home, and I paid my own airfare, and on the first 2 week trip home I spent about 4 days of my two weeks picking up boat parts. That kind of ticked me off. If I had gotten 4 weeks a year paid vacation and an airline ticket or two, I most likely would've stayed for several years. I gave the owner a 6 month commitment, told him a month before it was up that I would be going home, and went home the day after my 6 month commitment ended.

    I know one Sportfish that a Captain I know runs that goes to Bermuda for 3-4 months every year. Now, it's not feasible for the Captain to take enough time off during that Bermuda period to fly home for a week or two. He can take a day or two off a week, has nights free usually. SO, the owner flies his wife to Bermuda and puts her up in a place for a month or two of that time. Whatever the Captain wants regarding time of having his wife there.

    I agree with olderboater and his sentiments that every day away from home is a working day. I also feel that full time crew should get more time home. Unless the boat sits at home, like it does with surfli13. Then 3 weeks is probably ok. That way he can take his family (if he has one) on vacation or take a vacation somewhere himself. I also agree that taking a class related to your profession shouldn't be on your vacation time. I feel crew turnover is a lot more costly than a few extra weeks of paid vacation, even if you have to hire temporary crew to fill in. Now not all situations allow a set circumstance, but as a whole it could be much better.

    If crew doesn't take all of their time off, I would absolutely roll it over. OR, force them to take that trip/vacation they've always dreamed about and pay for it, all of it. If a crew member is loyal, been there a long time, and looks out for the boat and owners best interest, I think it would be wise to look out for their best interest. There are a large percentage of crew that don't and are horrible to work with.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Let's just look at the absurdity of that for a moment. For each 30 days I work I get 2.5 days off. So, I get the equivalent of one weekend per month, no holidays, no vacations. I can just save my weekends up. I work 337 days a year versus a person working a normal job with vacations and holidays and two days a week off works about 240 days a year. Suddenly the pay per day looks pretty bad and the hourly rate even worse. But most of all, you've decided that I'm not entitled to a home life, not entitled to a family life, not entitled to any relationships unless they're with other crew members on the same boat. No wonder you have boats like the one on "Below Deck". No wonder alcohol is such a problem with so many crew members. No wonder when crew gets a shore day, they just party wildly. No wonder being on a yacht crew has become a "pass through" job for many and not a career.
  16. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Another example from the business world. We would occasionally have employees serve three years maximum in other countries. They were provided housing there for themselves and family, their family was relocated there, all expenses were handled and they got generous vacation time there of at least 5 to 6 weeks a year. They also had two trips home per year for themselves and their families fully paid. But still, only 3 years, and as much as many enjoyed it, at the end of three years 80% came home. Some stayed a little longer. Only about 5% stayed beyond five years.
  17. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    I posted about the 7-day work week in the U.S. Navy to show that there are people who can handle those working conditions. I assumed that it would be known that there are people who make a career out of the Navy and that they even have families. I assure you it's not for the money, and it's not for everyone, as your 4-years-and-out correctly suggests.

    However, the Navy counts on that attrition rate. It has a nearly stable manpower requirement for ships. It needs a constant influx of youngsters to do the grunt work. If the Navy had olderboater's target retention rate of 85-90%, there would be too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

    I don't know what the crew retention rate is in the yachting world. It seems that whenever someone posts a question on YF about how to become a crew member on a yacht, the response is (simplistically) "well, good luck." I get the impression that there is enough supply to meet the demand. Am I wrong about that?
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes and no. People on a ship in the Navy don't work nearly the same amount of hours per week as full time crew on a yacht with guests or on charter unless you're in certain departments. My friend worked 12 on/12 off, but he told me there was plenty of time in his 12 on that he even goofed off or took naps. It depends on the position.

    I don't know. I'm always in high demand. Yeah there's a decent amount of crew around, but there's a real shortage of GOOD crew. So if all you want is a warm body that's going to scratch your paint and damage your teak decks by puking all over them, then Waxy's would be a good place to go to recruit one! LOL.
  19. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    Capt J, I wouldn't be responding here except you're bad-mouthing the U.S. Navy without having served in it. You did the same thing with DOD workers by saying they were over-paid and under-worked in the thread about tips. Maybe you need to branch out a little more, and find some friends that are more representative of the institutions you are demeaning.;)

    I was in the Navy. I served in both ballistic missile submarines and attack submarines. On patrol, a ballistic missile submarine is submerged for about 2.5 months. An attack submarine is submerged for up to about 6 months with food being the limiting factor. Underway, I spent 6 hours on watch in the sonar control room and 12 hours off watch on both types of subs. My time off watch was when preventive or corrective maintenance was done, as well as goofing off like your friend did.:) In case you missed it, that means that there is no contact with anyone outside of that submarine for those months. What's the average number of days of a yacht charter?
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  20. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    I am in no way disagreeing with your sentiment, but in answer to your question: we are not a charter yacht, but generally have the boss aboard for 3-5months at a time. During that time I generally step ashore once a month for an hour or so.