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Fuel burn on 70'+ Burger?

Discussion in 'Burger Yacht' started by Andytk5, Dec 30, 2009.

  1. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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    What are the ball park fuel burn numbers (gph) on one of these vintage boats with proper mechanical condition mains when cruising at 10-15 kts? How about running the gensets at anchor? Just looking for some ideas, thanks.
  2. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    At 10 kts, figure around 30gph total with gen set, genset alone will be about 1gph for typical light load. At 15kts you'll be close to double that since a 70'er will be climbing hard on the bow wake by then. 8-9kts ad you could be below 20gph. If you have old 2 stroke GMs add 30-45%
  3. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    I had no idea the 2 strokes were THAT much less efficient to run.
    At today's and future fuel cost it really may be better to repower from a 671 to a newer motor !
  4. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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    Alright, that gives me some idea of where it will fall, I was really interested to know the genset fuel burn so thanks. More specifically a Burger similar to this one,
    http://www.**************/boats/1965/Burger-Classic-1984935/Coral-Gables/FL/United-States


    as well as this one,
    http://www.**************/boats/1988/Burger-Cockpit-M-y-W-flybridge-1327348/Norfolk/VA/United-States

    Also buying a boat this age aside from engine repair what are some of the major issues potential buyers run into? Thanks.
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    both are basically a 10kts boat... forget trying to push it over 10kts, at 13 kts your fuel burn will be well over double, makes no sense.

    at or just under 10kts, these boats should burn no more than 20GPH total on the mains, even with DDs. for instance, a 58 Hatt MY with the same 8V92s burns about 10 to 12GPH at 9kts... these is obviously a larger boat but not burning 20GPH + 30 to 45% for the DDs...

    again, dont' believe the 13kts cruise speed, they simply dont' make a lot of sense unless you have to run from some weather.

    as to maintenance, teh engines are jsut part of the costs... Air con is a big one usually and obviously on a alum. boat, corrosion and paint can be very $$$... it all depends on teh condition of the boat.
  6. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    It's not just the 2 stroke aspect but also the inefficient fuel metering system. The modern electronically controlled engines are a great boon in efficiency made obvious by the greatly reduced soot (unburned/partially burned fuel). I ran the first boat in the gulf that had the 16-149 DDECs in it and they nearly doubled our fuel economy over the non DDEC 16-149s.
  7. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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  8. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    There are a lot more issues than the engines, especially as a boat gets over 20 years old. You'll be running into hull wastage and corrosion issues as well as, especially with aluminium, welds cracking in the high stress/flex/vibration areas. Getting boats through their 20 year survey was always an expensive PITA. You also have all the ancillary systems that will be at the end of their design life spans. Fuel systems, the tanks and delivery piping, transfer pumps, manifolds and hoses, all at the end of their lives. Air conditioning systems, electrical distribution.... At 20 years old, a vessel is typically due for a very thorough refit. Typically, we tell new buyers to budget 10% of the value of the boat for annual costs, and that's if you buy a well maintained boat around 5 years old. Older boats, and neglected boats can easily top that. With a 20 year old boat in the 70-80' range, it's not uncommon to spend over a million dollars on the refit to get it up to prime condition.

    As particular to the 8-92 TAs, in my experience the heads are temperature sensitive, when they hit 200*, they crack between the valves, so make sure you have high temp alarms set for 190*s.
  9. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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    That is some great info, I must thank you for your thoughtful input. If I were to consider one of these older boats is there a particular builder/brand that has held up better than the others?
  10. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    I wouldn't buy a boat with 12-71s, but the fuel burn is more associated with resistance=HP used, than horsepower available. A 12-71 is an 852 cubic inch engine, an 8-92 is a 736 cubic inch engine. If you have a 8-92 TA(turbocharged, you can put as much or more fuel/air to it as you can with a 12-71 NA. Personally, I'd be looking for one that has been repowered with modern digital control engines.
  11. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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    I'm sorry, I meant to say for the boat itself. Is there a builder I should stay away from more than others? I have been looking at older Burgers, Browards, Hatteras', etc.. I just didn't know if one had a better reputation than another?
  12. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Overall, Burger makes a very high quality product and you won't go wrong looking there.
  13. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    There are a lot of good boats out there. It's all about what your style desires and mission requirements and budget are. It's not an easy thing to figure out over a web board. That and there is a great differential between individual boats condition. You mention Broward, and that is a great example of individual vessel quality. I've worked on and run a lot of them over the years and they range from great to junk. If your mission is Bahamas, Coastal US and the Carib, you can get a heck of a lot of boat for your money. Right now you can get 100+' Browards for the budget shown in the ads you posted, you just have to be careful about which one you buy.
  14. Andytk5

    Andytk5 New Member

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    Very good. I have looked at alot of them and do like them. That is the main focus for this boat. East coast of Florida and maybe even to Costa Rica for a few years to live on the boat there. Major features 70' and larger, we have considered are a large aft deck, front pilot house, decent kitchen, sun area and second station above salon, large master, and at least one other state room that has a queen or larger, and then one or two other rooms. Thanks for your help Henning!
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    if you're concerned about maintenance costs (arent' we all...) maybe you should stay away from an alum hull and the related corrosion and paint bubling issues.

    from a built/maintenance point of view, it's hard to beat hatteras. Not only are they solid glass but the fuel tanks are fiberglass as well and will never need to be replaced (on diesel boats...)

    All the plumbing is heavy duty copper (fuel and water lines) which will last more than 20 years. mines are 40 years old and solid.

    Stringers are glass around foam, with the foam not being structural. I believe older Bertrams (and others) used glass encapsulated wooden stringers where the wood is structural, until it rots...

    In my experience, both on my own boat and boats i've captained, air con has been the most expensive system with compressor and air handlers replacements, some way before 20 years. Many agree that the newer compressors dont' seem to last as long as they used to...

    Personally i think it's hard to beat the looks and quality of a burger or broward but i'd be concerned about the maintenance required by the alum. hull. among the glass builders, you really cant' go wrong with a Hatteras.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have run and run a 75' Hatteras MY extensively with 12v71TI's. At 1,000 rpms both motors burn 12-14 gph combined. At 800 rpm's they're at 8-10 gallons per hour for both, at 1200 rpm's it's between 25-30gph (and only 1 knot faster). At 1950 rpms it burns around 95 gph for both engines.

    I did a 5300NM trip on 7500 gallons and ran the generators extensively overnight.

    A 20kw generator usually burned 2 gph under normal usage from what I've seen in that boat.

    While 12v71's are old technology they last a long time, will almost always get you home unless you've had a catastrophic issue, and run pretty clean. I would shy away from the 92 series engines.
  17. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Just don't go running turbocharged engines for long preiods below 1600 rpm to try and save fuel.Will wear them out before their time.

    If you want to run a 70 ft boat at 10kts most of the time look for naturally aspirated engines.
  18. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    I disagree. There are plenty of low and medium speed diesels that run turbos. It's all about matching the turbo to the gas flow. A diesel gains considerable efficiency with a turbo. When it comes to lower horsepower modern high speed diesels, I would prefer to have a smaller turboed engine of the proper horsepower and geared down to let her turn up. Can you even still buy a new N/A engine? Pretty much everything is turbo any more because of emissions.

    You could actually run that 85'Burger on a pair of 375hp 6BT Cummins very efficiently at 9kts (boat only needs 500hp to go 9kts) with a top speed of 10.4-6, though I'd prefer to use bigger medium speed series engines.
  19. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    I'm with Henning on this one.

    The 'B' Series 6 Cummins is great for this sort of use. It can run well at lower speeds and then perform well as needed.

    As a mega plus, no stupid electronics to go wrong too.
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree with this entire post, with your size and budget the Hatteras is also the way to go. Burger is a better choice then Broward but older aluminum is more maintanence heavy then fiberglass. I ran a Hatteras last year 5300NM and it was a very very comfortable boat for a crew of 3 to live/work/travel on for 60 days up and 30 days back without the associated dockside noise of an aluminum hull. There is both a 75' Hatteras (with cockpit) "Free Spirit" and a 70' Hatteras MY "Sanity" for sale in Fort Lauderdale and they are both well maintained Hatteras' that you could buy and take to Costa Rica right now with nothing more then doing oil changes and buying spare parts.

    As for the air conditioners I agree. A 1979 58' YF I worked on, still has 2 of the 4 origional units working perfectly. The other 2 were replaced in 2007 because the a/c pump stopped working and they hammered the compressors. I manage many different yachts, and I don't have any yachts built in the 90's that still have origional a/c's, they just don't last as long anymore.