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Carver Diesel 355 owner needs help

Discussion in 'Carver Yacht' started by timjet, Mar 22, 2013.

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  1. timjet

    timjet Member

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    I need to know the proper prop pitch on my '98 Carver 355 with Cummins diesel power. Anyone with a 355 Carver with diesel engines if you would post your boats prop pitch and prop size and the WOT rpm you achieve I would really appreciate it.
    Thanks,
    Tim
  2. SeaDragon

    SeaDragon New Member

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    My '99 404 CPMY w/Cummins 210hp has 20X20 four blade props.
  3. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Thanks SeaDragon,

    I'm curious, I think the 404 is the same boat as my 355 with the 4' longer hull to accommodate the cockpit. I think perhaps 4000 lbs heaver. My 355 has a slow planning hull profile, and I thought all the 404's did too.
    You can't possibly get on plane with the 210 hp Cummins can you?

    Tim

    I forgot to mention as I thought they were all the same, my 355 has the Cummins 6BT 330 M's, 330 hp.
  4. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    Did you end up putting the pyro and boost gauges on? Just curious how you made out with that...
  5. SeaDragon

    SeaDragon New Member

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    Timjet My 404 will get on plane... eventually. Top speed is about 18knts. You might want to look for the serial #/spec plates on your engines, mine too are listed as 330M. I believe you are right they are the same boats, mine just has an extension for the cockpit.
  6. timjet

    timjet Member

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    ksbguy;I have not put boost or egt gauges on.

    About 2 months ago the hose clamp on the hose that connects the hose from the aftercooler to the tranny cooler broke. This hose is located directly above the air intake and salt water was ingested for about 45 minutes before I caught it. There was no engine indication that salt water was being ingested, I found it on my post flight inspection at anchor. I replaced the clamp and it took about 30 sec to start the engine the next day. It ran fine for the hour and a half it took to get home. We ran at our normal cruise of 2300 rpm.
    6 weeks later when we tried to use the boat the engine would not get above 1500 rpm in gear, and we got heavy black smoke. The engine started normally and ran up to 3200 rpm in neutral. I noticed the turbo had some resistance when I turned it by hand but it was easy to overcome. I had the turbo rebuilt but that didn't help. I'm working with Tony Athens on Boatdiesel.com to figure this out.

    I still have the low rpm issue and want to get other 355 owners data on their props. But right now I'm focused on getting the engine back up to speed w/o the black smoke.

    Tim
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Check fuel filters first, make sure air filters are cleaned if washable (salt on the filters will block airflow), and the bottom and running gear are clean. If both of these items have been done, and the motor has ingested a decent amount of saltwater, I would pull the injectors and test them as well as doing a compression test. If it got onto plane before and ran at cruise speed, I wouldn't really think it's the props. What rpm's did it make prior to this episode?

    Black smoke indicates excess fuel, and honestly by the sounds of it, you probably have a dead/low cylinder or two but this might not be the case.
  8. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Thanks Capt J,
    Fuel filters are good all 3 of them.
    Air filter was cleaned with a product made for this purpose. There was some salt residue on the filter. However I did run the engine w/o the filter and it did not change the black smoke issue.
    Bottom and props are clean and before the water ingestion issue I was getting 2550 rpm out of both engines.
    The reason I started this thread is when I get the black smoke issue resolved I need to get the engines up to 2950 and I think it may be the props have too much pitch. Before I go that route I wanted to find out what other 355 diesel engine owners have on their props.

    What do you mean my a dead/low cylinder?

    Thanks,
    Tim
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    A dead/low cylinder is when one of the cylinders does not make enough compression to ignite the fuel charge due to either a broken valve, broken rings, damaged piston or all of the above. Meaning in order to fix it, you're taking the entire engine apart and putting a piston/liner kit in that cylinder to say the least. But if that is the case, due to ingesting saltwater, you're really going to have to do a major overhaul for the motor to be right. You could fix the cylinder then after a few more trips have another one let go as well. I'd also have the piston rods really checked as well, because you can't compress water and may have bent or cracked some.

    I would also take a REAL good look at the turbo's, because they don't like saltwater either and it doesn't take a whole lot of additional clearance between the housing and turbo vanes to create a large loss of boost.

    At this point, I would hook a boost gauge to the boat and verify boost at cruise. It's also quite common to have to cut a few inches of pitch from the propellors with your type of boat and it's age.....If the engine isn't smoking at slower speeds in gear at all, I would tend to think it's not a split tip on an injector but you never can be sure. If they're mechanical injectors a mechanic can usually tell if you have a dead/low cylinder with the engine running and valve covers off.
  10. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Thanks Capt J,

    I had the turbo overhauled because there was some resistance when I turned it. I think I can eliminate not enough air as an issue.
    The engine runs normal in neutral to 3200 rpm. When it's under load is when I get the black smoke issue and can't get above 1500 rpm.

    I'm working with Tony Athens the guru on boatdiesel.com to figure this out. The day after the salt water ingestion the engine ran normal at my cruising speed of 2300 rpm. It wasn't until 6 weeks later that the engine would not come up to speed under load.

    I looked at the valves and they seem to be all operating normally. It's easy to do on a Cummins.

    So I'm thinking injector or bad cylinder, will let Tony guide me on this.

    Tim
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Well, at this point it sounds like you're next step is to pull/test injectors and do a compression test. A lot of motors do run fine the next day after a situation like yours, but they've already had damage done to them that hasn't fully occured yet. Then after they sit and you start it the next time a weak ring or slightly damaged valve breaks...etc..... or you could just have a split tip on an injector (hopefully)
  12. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Problem found and fixed

    I wanted to update folks on my low power issues.

    I got about 45 minutes of saltwater ingestion on the port Cummins 6BT. The engine would not get above 1600 rpm and black smoke was coming out of the exhaust at that rpm. The engine idled normally and ran to rated WOT in neutral.

    I had the turbo re-built, cleaned the air filter, cleaned the after-cooler, all no help.

    I contacted Tony Athens on boatdiesel.com and he suggested re-propping. I took 4 inches out of my props. Now have 23x22. This simple but expensive exercise seems to have solved the problem. I get 2900 WOT in gear, before I only got 2550 rpm. I cruise at 2550 and 17.5 kts down a little from 18 kts I got before at 2300 rpm.

    I get a puff of black smoke coming through 2000 rpm getting over the hump but it immediately goes away and only occurs during acceleration.
    Boost pressures are nearly the same at 13.4 and 14.5 at 2550 rpm. Boost at 2900 is 22 psi.

    I can't explain the smoking issues right after the salt water ingestion. But the engine with the new prop runs at rated rpm.
  13. Monepit

    Monepit Member

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    I had a 97 355 with250 Hp cummins diesels it had 20 22 dyna quad props. With a clean bottom and half fuel it would do 26.5 mph. I usually cruised at 23 mph. Wot was 2800 rpm. Cruise was 2350. As the bottom got dirty it would loose Bout 3 mph.
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    By making your props smaller you have reduced the load on your engines, while they might still make the rated speed they are not working as hard ( developing as much power) as they would have to to reach that speed with the bigger wheels.

    What you have done is mask the problem not solve it.
  15. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    What choice would he have assuming all is right with the engines?

    timjet's post is a bit confusing in that on post #12 he first states it wouldn't get above 1600 and then he says he was getting 2550. My comment above is on the basis that everything was covered mechanically on motors after the salt water ingestion and the boat was only getting 2550. At that point I would think a pitch change is in order. However, it does sound like he needed way too big a reduction in pitch so maybe motors aren't all that healthy and problem is now masked...
  16. timjet

    timjet Member

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    I was getting 2550 rpm at WOT before the salt water ingestion on both engines. After the salt water ingestion on the port engine, 1600 and lots of black smoke. I failed to mention that during all this I had the port engine realigned with the shaft because my diver said the port engine the one with the salt water ingestion was much harder to turn than the starboard one. The mechanic that realigned the shaft and engine said it was not out of alignment by much and doubted the alignment caused the smoke. After the alignment the shaft was still harder to turn than the starboard engine but improved. After the alignment I was able to get back to nearly 2500 rpm on the port engine but it smoked a lot coming over the hump at 2000 rpm.

    With the new props I get 2900 WOT on both engines, and a little smoke coming over the hump at 2000 rpm on the port engine. Yes I agree the props may be masking something on the port engine.