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new cylinder heads for a 6v92ti?

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Sherrie, Mar 12, 2015.

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  1. Sherrie

    Sherrie Member

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    I bought a 58 ft hatteras, the engines were suppose to have been new and just put in 3 years ago.

    Well the port engine transmission seal was bad along with the turbo. A mechanic has been working on it at a cost of $8000. He called today and said the other turbo is bad and the cylinder heads appear to be bad along with other damage inside the engine from a cylinder head being thrown and that is what stuck the first turbo. He is charging me another $800 just to get the cylinder heads apart to see what is wrong and he said the injectors are not even the correct injectors for the engine.

    I am now seeing where this is possibly going to go to $20,000 or more just for the engine.

    It is very hard being in Tennessee with the boat in Florida trying to get things done. The person I had hired to handle the boat never did anything and I have been trying to get people there and get work done from a distance.

    The mechanic said the heads could cost $4000 each. He said he would only get brand new ones. I have looked online and can not find brand new cylinder heads for the 6v92ti only re manufactured ones. Those are around $1196 each. I looked them up on the phone when I was talking to him and told him the price I was finding. He seemed a little irritated at me. That is when he said he would not put a re-manufacturered one in it.

    I mentioned dieselpro as a company and he immediately said he would not buy anything from there.

    So, can someone get a brand new 6v92ti cylinder head? Also am I being taken for a huge ride here and possibly being taken advantage of, from those that are familiar with this type problems.

    Was $7500 a lot for changing the transmission seal and changing one of the turbos in the first place? That price included parts and labor but no taxes.

    Now it seems that price may double for labor alone from how he was talking now including the parts cost.

    I am frustrated needless to say.

    Thanks for any advice regarding this.
  2. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    You haven't owned the boat that long and even if the leaking gear box seal was sanitized for the sea trials by wiping down the bilges and affected areas your surveyor should have caught this with a decent inspection with his fingers / hands. Did you have engine surveys performed by a good engine surveyor ?
    Just reading your first paragraph, if it's verbatim from the mechanic's mouth than your being taken for a ride. Stop. reassess what's going on and get second and third engine evaluations . The Hatt. / G.M. people on YF that know the ins and outs of gear box disconnecting for the front seal & can speak to the cost question better than I can but just the verbiage of "cylinder head being thrown" is enough for me to scream shyster. Did he REALLY say that?? Irritated at your questions and sourcing of parts? Another sign that he may have thought you an easy mark. Stick to your guns and engage any diesel mechanic or contractor with questions as they should be more than happy to either physically show you the damage and path taken to affect a repair or negotiate the $$ repair if you can find parts online cheaper.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2015
  3. Sherrie

    Sherrie Member

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    I bought it as is where is without a survey being done.

    How do you stop and reassess. I have already given him a $4000 deposit. Yes he said something was thrown from the cylinder heads and went through the engine since it works on pressure and lodged in the one turbo that he knew was bad as he said he could not turn it and it was stuck.
    The engine is apart now with the transmission lifted out already for the seal change.

    He is suppose to send me pictures this evening of it all.
  4. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    I've been following your posts the in the past and was anticipating the outcome. I enjoyed all the Neo's of the world falling all over themselves to wish you well and this and that but somehow don't remember any of them telling you to NEVER purchase a boat without a hull and machinery survey...I'm sure a few YF members did but I haven't re- read all the previous posts
    Your the customer that's paying the bills, You can stop and reassess anytime that you want to !! If the gearbox is in his shop you can still say no more billable hours until I get a second opinion .If your head is off than you should be shown what the damage is by your mechanic and have him give you estimates as he tears the motor down for what it's going to take $$ wise to make it right.If you gave him a deposit of $4,000than ask for an accounting update on where the invoice parts and labor stands. Did this mechanic come with several verifiable references? (always important) Either you trust this guy or you don't, that's for you to ascertain. That being said your or the mechanics earlier statement makes a little more sense now. Since you only have exhaust valves and not intake valves than it could have been a valve , seat or spring that would have dropped down, balled up and beat a hole in the top of a piston and then maybe exited from what was left of your exhaust valves on that cylinder and traveled to your turbo but not traveled through the engine as first quoted. Sounds like he's elbows deep now with your one side head off , pan dropped and the gearbox out of the vessel so either you go with it or become engaged as one with your mechanic. Did you damage a piston crown?
    Was it a bad valve seat or spring that let loose. what are the steps he's taking with your head? Should be just a situation of machining the existing heads deck and pressing in new seats etc.
  5. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    I agree that you really need to get a handle on this. Are you using a legit Detroit Diesel shop or an independent mechanic? Stop the work until you can control it better. That means getting clear answers from your mechanic or change mechanics or going to Florida or get someone you trust to go.
    If the main seal is leaking oil from the crankcase into the transmission you could possibly get by with changing the transmission oil more often. Aren't you going to use this boat as a liveaboard anyway once you get it home?
    If as you say you could get into $20K or more keep in mind you can do a complete overhaul on a 6V92 for about $30K.
    The part about buying the boat without a mechanical inspection or survey I'm not even going to comment on.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Before you dig a deep hole even deeper, you need someone managing this for you in Florida. I'd personally suggest either a good captain or engineer or a reputable yacht manager. You don't have the experience to wade through what you're told and to know who is being honest with you and who isn't. Nor do you have the experience to know which solution is best in the long run. You need someone representing you. If you had that someone he could go look at what has been taken off. He could give you better insight.

    The other option is to go to a top level reputable shipyard, like a Rolly or Roscioli or Rybovich and get them to do the work, but that will be top end prices and their recommendation is very likely to be to do complete rebuilds. Others I'm sure can recommend diesel mechanics I'm not familiar with. But you need real mechanics with real shops and reputations. There are a lot of people in South Florida (and elsewhere) who call themselves professionals when I wouldn't agree with that label for them.

    But you can't manage this based either on experience or location.

    I think you know by now you made a great mistake but that's not the issue at this point. It is because you have expenses you didn't anticipate doesn't mean now you should take the cheap way out. Now the cheapest way may be right, but it often isn't. You need to get this done right or what you've already spent will feel wasted and you'll have a problem ever enjoying the boat. You can still end up with a great boat. It's just going to cost much more to get there than you planned.
  7. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Would you care to enlighten the rest of the forum just how a valve spring is going to find its way into the combustion space of a two stroke Detroit Diesel engine?

    The last time I was working on a two stroke Detroit the air entered from the side via ports in the liner, the exhaust valve area has one way flow ( out) and there is always a positive pressure in a two strokes cylinder when the engine is running.
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Can we also be enlightened by the OP as to what use this two years of education that will result in the creation of a professional diesel mechanic/technician at the end of the course has gone towards helping understand what they are being told versus what they know from their 2 yrs of study.

    I did a full apprenticeship which was 10,000 hr contract with time off for passing exams and was qualified as a Diesel Mechanic before I went to sea.

    I have never stopped learning myself over the ensuing 34 yrs and find it incredulous that a course is promoted that claims to teach everything about this complex and continually evolving subject in 2 years.
  9. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    After re reading the post last night after my 30 min. grace period for editing I knew I was going to take my lumps on this one. Sorry, I stated that no intake vales are present but didn't mention the scavenge ports as its through liner ports, Valve seat could fail & drop but certainly not the spring. Rolled over in bed last night thinking this could be a blood bath! My bad.... Thanks for going easy on me! coulda been a lot worse!!
  10. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    No thanks needed, I was just curious as to how a valve spring would end up in small enough pieces to get down the guide into the cylinder in the first place. I wondered if there was some history of them breaking into small pieces.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Sherrie...Boat #1, the Roamer, you didn't purchase because of the survey. Boat #2, the Hatteras, then you chose not to have a survey done. Survey saved you from a mistake once. That confuses me more as to why none this time. I hope the price was such a bargain as to make the repairs affordable. Here is your quote from the first one, "It just ends up not being the correct home for me as I am not confident that it would not cost me more than I can afford to keep her in good shape and to do what needs to be done."

    Now you also talk about a quick delivery type trip to Knoxville. And you have a mechanic working on your boat that you don't seem to trust. I see a pattern that scares me a bit for you. Getting in a hurry, doing this on a schedule that encourages mistakes. I knew someone last year making the trip to the Tennessee who got held up in Mobile for a month. Too much brush and too many trees coming down the Tombigbee.

    I know you're anxious and know you intend to learn, but I have to advise two things. First, slow down, patience, caution. Right now haste has likely cost you a lot of money. One day it could be your life. Second, don't overestimate your knowledge or ability. You will take Captains courses and diesel classes but that doesn't make you a Captain or an Engineer. It makes you perhaps apprentice level. I know you intend to use a captain to take it to Tennessee. Well, right now you need someone to use in Florida to get it ready to go to Tennessee. Someone you've checked out who can be your knowledgeable eyes, ears and advisor there.

    This is slow down, take a deep breath time. This is not make another single move or financial commitment until you have someone on site in Florida representing your interests.

    Did you get a written estimate of work needed from the mechanic you're using? Let's forget no survey before purchase, but did he not then survey the situation to give you an estimate of all that needed to be done? The very fact that you were out searching for parts disturbs me. A good mechanic would know far more about getting parts than you. You need to back up and regroup. Figure out now the best way to get from where you are to where you need to be. Realize it's going to cost far more than you anticipated but that's already a sunk cost, that's based on a prior decision. You can't get peace of mind doing it the way you're going so you'll have to buy that in the right local advisor.

    I am a 200 Ton Master, have covered over 50,000 nm in the last three years, have 25 years experience running companies and yet I could not possibly talk to your mechanic and know whether he was honest or good. Instinct would help me, but lack of technical knowledge would kill me. I have just a grain of knowledge compared to hundreds of members here. We bought a center console recently. I knew nothing about them and the first time in my life I've ever owned an outboard. I found some knowledgeable CC fanatics to advise me.

    There are many industry veterans on here who are located in South Florida. Time for you to start your search for not your personal knowledge but someone with the knowledge already, someone you can trust. It's going to cost you. Your dream might be a little delayed and not as attractive at the moment, but it can still be realized. I repeat myself but...

    the choices

    Someone local you trust to oversee, manage the boat for you while it's there. That will cost you $300-400 a day but let me assure you that's not wasted cost anymore than a surveyor would have been. You're dealing with potentially $30,000 to $40,000 so if you pay 10% on top to get it done right and make sure nothing is wasted, good investment. Paying a mechanic you don't trust (right or wrong), bad investment.

    or

    Pay a premium to a top yard, one with DD experts and certifications, one that will stand behind their work, one with a reputation they value, one that will give you the facts whether you like them or not. That might cost you 20% over just finding a mechanic. Might save you thousands as well.

    Right now you might spend $10,000 and get nothing that will last and that's more expensive than $20,000 or $30,000 and results. You've spent $8,000 with someone already that you don't sound at all confident in. Whether you should be or not, I have no idea. And I will not judge them based on what you've posted because you don't have the knowledge to represent what they've said to you properly. It would be like me listening to a speech in French and then telling a group what was said.

    Your next move is the one toward salvaging your dream. Make it without the proper ally with knowledge and odds are against you. Turn in the right direction and you'll one day be boating on the Tennessee River with this an ugly and distant memory.

    Now, what you need from this site, isn't advice on your repairs. They can't diagnose your engine issues online. You need advice of expertise in the area of your boat that can be trusted to do the job you need done. And there is no greater knowledge of the area or people there than you can find here. Why don't you start a thread asking recommendations of yacht managers, captains to oversee projects, boatyards in the area? Perhaps even an engine surveyor at this point.

    Then just accept this as a new start. You'll then know how when you get the boat to Knoxville to find advisors, captains, mechanics, yards there you can trust. In the long run learning this now might be the best thing that could happen. Some people never learn it and then want out of boating but because they didn't maintain their boat it's not worth half what they owe.
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    The OP could do worse than speak to CaptJ on here. He and I have crossed swords at times but I know someone else via this site who used him and speaks volumes for the assistance he provided.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I agree as this is just the type owner he deals with frequently and having lived forever in South Florida he knows all the yards well. As he's a friend I hesitated to mention his name specifically, but this is well within his area of knowledge and experience. There may also be others with similar experience. He's just the one I know best. He definitely knows the local landscape and has contacts.
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Another member who could give excellent engineering advice would be Marmot if he were still contributing, he might be reached by PM I think. I have an e mail addy for anyone that does want to pick his brains.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Marmot would be excellent once she got beyond the initial hurdle of him telling her what he thought of what she's done. And I've been told he is quite pleasant to deal with in person.

    She just really needs to find someone who will represent her interests and in whom she can trust.
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I was trying to think of a diplomatic way to write that, well done.

    In my experiences with the aforementioned I would say I can agree with that statement 100%
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have read this thread and will chime in with some random thoughts. I have a lot of experience with the 58' YF, I ran and maintained a 1979 58' YF for years. I think 2004 to about 2010 or 2011 through 3 owners (just delivered it for the last owner). I could help you and take a look at the boat and parts/pieces.

    Is $7500 expensive for a transmission seal and a new turbo. It sounds about right if it involves a new turbo and not a rebuilt one, maybe a touch high, BUT access on that boat in the transmission area is a little difficult with the way the exhaust is routed, the access door and engine room. I was just quoted $4500 to replace a rear main seal on a 12v92 on a 54' Bertram and that involved dropping the transmission back and access is much better and didn't involve any turbo work.

    Just because the engines were rebuilt 3 years ago means nothing. Who knows if they were even rebuilt properly 3 years ago. Everything from your posts point to a boat that has not been used and would explain all of the issues......algae in fuel, transmission seal leaking, heads etc. If they sat for months on end without being run, they could be total junk and need rebuilds again. It's not like parking a car in a climate controlled garage for 3 years and not running it. You have salwater in the exhaust and get condensation into the motor due to temperature changes, open exhaust valves, current etc. What you've told me about both cylinder heads being bad points to a lot of corrossion, which I would definately major the motor, but I'm just going by what you told me which might or might not be actual. Which would explain a broken valve seat, probably due to corrosion and it's quite possible you have piston and liner damage from lack of use/corrosion as well. If you're looking at spending $20k, I'd be inclined to advise you to spend the extra and just do a rebuild and know you have a good engine when you get done. DD has a very short warranty on parts, 6 months. But your trip will ring out any issues if you're going to have any. If they stay together running 12 days at cruise without issue then they should be fine. What oil pressure are they running at cruise speed, and at idle after running at cruise speed? What coolant temps? How much did they smoke at startup (and were they ambient temperature)? How much do they smoke at idle speed, at cruise, volume and color of the smoke.

    It's impossible to know what's going on with what you're telling us. Pictures of the parts would help. Most independant DD mechanics will only use DD parts. Most mechanics in general don't want to use a customers parts, due to how long the part may have been sitting around, future warranty issues etc. You can get reliabilt DD cylinder heads from D.D. but haven't priced them in ages. You might be able to get new ones as well. Some of the DD reliabilt rebuilt parts had a lot of quality issues around 2008-2010, but I've heard they've gotten better.

    I know you have this dream of living on a yacht and sound to be on a smaller budget. But the yacht you bought and any yacht of that size and era is going to take a large financial committment to keep maintained. Just the price of batteries every 2-3 years, bottom paint every 1.5-2 years, engine maintanence, and on and on is very expensive.

    Email me the name of the mechanic and I'll let you know if I know anything about them. Reputation etc. etc. I too would not rush this and get it right and repair it properly to get it right. Last thing you want is to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a major issue. Given what you've stated on the one motor. I'd also be inclined to recommend having the airbox inspection covers pulled and valve covers on the other motor and just doing a visual inspection on the liners and rocker arms.

    I agree with K1w1 and olderboater that a class for 2 years will help, but it's not an end all to all end alls, and a lot of things are learned from experience.
  18. Sherrie

    Sherrie Member

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    Thank you to everyone for your advice and comments.

    I believe it was bad fuel that caused the problems. The mid tank is really bad and I have been waiting until haul out to have to cleaned out along with the aft tank. I had the forward tank cleaned and the fuel polished already. The mid tank when it was checked had a foot of water and about 6 inches of gunk at the bottom. I am thinking the previous owner did not think about cleaning the tanks out and ran the engines off the mid tank with the generator. As per my understanding the generator went out at about the same time trouble with the engine started. Skip gave me the previous owners information yesterday so I talked with him last night, to get the 'new engine' paperwork from him. He told me the generator went out about half way into his trip. I still need to have the generator fixed.

    The mechanic sent me 2 pictures last night. I don't know how to get them on this thread. When I click the pictures icon above, it only gives me the option of a url not a file insert. The pictures he sent shows both cylinder heads blown out.

    Yes, I bought it "as is where is" because I got an amazing deal on it, in fact my insurance company first replied "that is not possible to buy a boat like that for that price". Which I am sure when I go to register the boat here in Tennessee, they will not believe me in that I only paid what I did for the boat. The previous owner (lives in another country and very wealthy from my understanding) had bought it and used it for 2 months and then left it 2 years ago, never to go back on it. He just wanted it "sold and gone" per the broker - Skip Denison. So I bought it "where is as is" to get the deal done as the next door neighbor to it had offered a price but had not come up with the money yet. He went off on a trip on his boat and I believe he did not think someone else would come during the holidays and purchase it. I offered a price and gave Skip the amount in full with the offer to buy on New Years day. The boat was listed the day before Christmas, which was lucky for me to get it for the price I did. Let me put it this way, the price I got it for is 1/4 of the normal price for the exact boat, that age.

    K1W1, Thank you so very much, I have used the email address you gave me!

    I sincerely appreciate everyone here. It is such a great community.

    I was suppose to have started diesel school earlier this month but delayed it to bring the boat up. I was thinking I would start the trip up at the end of this month, but that does not look possible now.

    Now, I start school on May 4th and I am hoping to still be part of bringing the boat up, as I know I would learn a tremendous amount that is only possible when travelling on her, not just sitting at the dock. Yes, I still need to do it as fast as possible. With longer day light we would be traveling from early morning to twilight to get it done in the quickest way possible, especially since I am going into a time crunch again for school starting.

    Good news is; I got an awesome slip at Vol. Marina. Joe, gave me a prime spot (in my opinion) with a small extra platform dock area to park a golf cart at it. I signed the lease the other day to start April 1st. , yeah a tad early now but I am really excited about living at the marina and my slip position there.
  19. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Based on your posts I would strongly suggest you find someone through a referral who you can trust to guide you through this. Otherwise it seems to me you are going to get taken to the cleaners.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  20. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    $4,000 for cylinder heads? Won't use a rebuilt head? Find a new mechanic.

    I rebuilt a 12v92TA just last summer. My engines uses the exact same heads just four of them as opposed to two for your 6v92's. I used the Detriot Dealer for my area. I just looked at the receipt and a complete cylinder head was $1,358. Turbos were pretty expensive at $2,921 each. I can't imagine why the guy wouldn't use a rebuilt head. As long as they are from a reputable parts house what's the difference? It is the same parts loaded into a casting just like a new one. As long as it has been tested for cracks and such I can't understand why you wouldn't use rebuilt. There is no more risk in a rebuilt head then buying new in my opinion (again, provided they come from a reputable place).

    As far as labor it is very relative to how much room you have to work. Mine are a pain as everything gets stripped off the top down to the blowers so we can jack the engines up far enough to drop the two-piece pan and get to the rod bolts and crank bearings. Turbo should be pretty straightforward to swap but the reduction gear seal can be somewhat involved.