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Dyed vs. Regular Diesel

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by NEO56, Oct 25, 2014.

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  1. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    I was calling around today for fuel delivery companies, and had some very interesting conversations. First of all does Dyed Diesel effect the performance of Marine diesel's? The current quotes I got was $3.55 per gallon for un-dyed diesel, and $2.75 for Dyed, both delivered. Now this is where it get's interesting. The first company I spoke with said I had to have a permit to buy Dyed Diesel. The second told me that if the Fuel went directly into the boat from the Fuel Truck that a permit wasn't needed. Also the first company told me that if the fuel loading took longer than an hour a demerage charge would be applied at the tune of $95/hr.! Has anyone ever heard of such a thing?
  2. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    The dye is not going to cause any engine issues. Undyed diesel (in the US) has taxes applied to it to pay for roads. Dyed diesel is there so that people who need fuel but not roads (initially the exemptions were passed for farmers) are not paying to subsidize roads.

    The technician/driver is a pretty skilled individual with a lot of responsibility and the truck is an expensive piece of equipment that is used around the clock. I am not surprised at the notion that they would make you pay if it took a long time. If you own a boat that takes more than an hour to fuel up you aren't going to balk at $95 an hour.
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Dyed ( non taxed) and non dyed (taxed) is basically the same fuel but sometimes the non taxed stuff has a higher sulphur content, it is dyed primarily so it can be readily identified if you are using non tax paid fuel in a situation where you should pay tax on it. I would get the facts around the use of non tax paid fuel in your state. I would be very reluctant to listen to Billy Bod at the Fuel shop telling me how it works. It has been a while since I was in the FL and loaded fuel but remember we couldn't have tax free fuel if we were going north or staying put, we could use it if sailing foreign and there was no issue coming back with it in the tanks.
  4. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    All diesel fuel in the US, on road, off road, locomotive and marine, is now ULSD with less than 15 ppm (0.0015%) sulfur. Sulfur content is no longer an issue here but when it comes to marine fueling, it is a buyer beware situation outside the US.

    Marine diesel fuel, MDO or MGO, used in the areas described as Emission Control Areas (ECA - look it up) is permitted by international law to contain up to 10,000 ppm (1%) sulfur until the end of this year. Outside an ECA, the limit until 2020 is 35,000 ppm when it drops to 5,000 ppm.

    Pay very careful attention to what you get when you buy fuel from a source that also supplies commercial vessels outside US waters. Be aware that the bunker ticket does not always tell the truth. The prudent master or chief engineer knows the value of a fuel sample.
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Ain't that the truth, FOBAS whilst a PITA to get the samples away at times is a good quick way to see if what the Marpol "Compliant " Delivery Note says you got is actually what you got.

    I also use an onboard FP Tester prior to commencing bunkering to tell immediately if I have grounds to refuse the delivery.
  6. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    Well, I'm currently in Texas, but I've heard of demarage charges on freight like rail cars, Container ships etc. but never for delivering fuel. I can't imagine it taking longer than an hour to dump 3,000 gallons into a tank. And no, an extra 95 bucks on top of a Fuel bill like that isn't going to cause a stroke, it was just something I'd never heard of. I guess you learn something new everyday. The Marina I'm considering is rather small, but it's the only one around that completely fenced in, and has security. About the only place to park her would be out on a T. And their hoses are only 100 feet long. So I guess when the time comes, I'll have to find a place that's more accessible for the truck.

    Marmot, is there a on board test kit that will give an accurate sulfur reading prior to it going in the tank? Or do you have to send it to a lab? K1W1 mentioned an FP Tester. Could you enlighten me on what that is? Is it akin to a pool testing kit, or some type of electronic sniffer?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
  7. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    at one time, clear diesel or road diesel had to be ultra low sulfur

    currently, in my area #2 oil (the red stuff) has to be ultra low sulfur content.

    Number 2 oil and red diesel come from the same hook or supply tank at the depot.

    Currently, the red diesel is the same as the clear stuff with a dye added to it.

    The red is added to determine if the tax was paid.
    If a truck is found with red fuel during an inspection (they check the filters) it is a heavy fine for using untaxed fuel in a truck on the road.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    It s always hard to get th right replies when a thread is so vague, How much fuel are you talking about? Thre is obviously a difference in procedures if you re getting 1000 gal like most of us do or tens of thousand.

    Yes, non road taxed fuel is dyed and should not be used in road going vehicle.

    All the marine fuel I ve had delivered here in Miami is dyed. I ve used Admiral, Shoreline and a third one I don't recall (dade fuel I think) and there is no other charge but it never takes too long to pump 1000 to 1200 gal.

    If you are pumping at their standard rate I don't see why there should be an hourly charge although $95 a hour while pumping $7000 of fuel an hour is not much to loose sleep about.

    Again, if you re asking about refueling here in Miami like your homeport indicate, shoreline and admiral are the big reliable players. If you refuel right before heading to the bahamas, you won't have to pay state sales tax (keep the cruising permit if audited) and be aware that when refueling at some marinas the delivery truck will tack on a charge for th marina (often 0.10 per gal)
  9. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    It is a Flash Point Tester as Marine Fuels should not flash off below 60 deg C closed cup. We always take representative drip samples from the bunker manifold , each has a numbered tamper proof seal and it is logged, one goes to the fuel supplier, one to FOBAS ( Fuel Oil Bunker Advisory Service) and one is retained onboard in the event of dispute. We use proper sample bottles with the correct lids and seals supplied at a cost by our test lab.

    On your sport fisher you won't need to be this extreme but as we are loading way more than 1000 gals we have to be but even with small loads good fuel husbandry will be re paid in spades by lack of problems caused by sloppy procedures
  10. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    Give any thought to League City (South Shore Harbour Marina)?
  11. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    The 74 Viking carries 3,000 gallons of fuel. There's a lot of offshore rigs available to fish 20-50 miles offshore. If I troll out and then run back at 80% of WOT, I'm thinking I can make a tank last three months.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Every marina in the US is going to have died offroad diesel in their tanks. There used to be a large difference in sulfer contant 500PPM (dyed/offroad) and 15 ppm on road, now it's all 15 ppm whether it be on road or off road. If you're taking a few thousand gallons most fuel docks will discount it pretty heavily. I don't know about TX, but we have fuel trucks typically 3200-4200 gallon trucks that will deliver fuel and Port petroleum has a 400' hose. Some of the others only have a 200' hose etc.....

    The one company probably dealt with someone that had a clogged or small vent and had to take a 1000 gallons at 5 gallons per minute and tied up the driver for half a day......a 74' Viking will typically take 30 gallons per minute maximum. Maybe slightly more but not much........
  13. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    Hi OP, Yeah I went to a "boat show" there last year...the reason for " boat show" was it was a pathetic excuse for a show. Two docks worth of boats, and 90% of them were previously owned. But we did walk around and there is no security whatsoever. The marina at the Kemah boardwalk is completely fenced in with security gates that require a card to get both in and out, and it's on the other side of the bridge of Clear Lake. South Shore Harbour Marina is well inside, probably a two to three miles inside of Clear Lake...but it is a nice Marina. Lot's of blow boats.
  14. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I remember when the dye/tax thing came about, but no small boater in this country give it a thought. As you say, it's dyed fuel at every fuel dock I've ever been to and even when the fuel was trucked to the dock, until I got to one dock in Ottowa. After that incident when the marina put gas in one of our tanks and pumped the tank out, we fueled and it took me by surprise when I saw undyed fuel in those Racors. We also would never think to test fuel. As K1W1 pointed out, it's one world when you're taking 1,000 gals. It's an entirely different one when you're taking 20,000 gals.
  15. NEO56

    NEO56 Member

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    Thanks J, when I lived down in Duck Key, the trucks would park on the street and walk a hose all the way back to the dock...there must have been 300 feet of hose coiled on those spools. I always wanted to ask them what kind of pump was required to get fuel down a hose that long!
    I've always wondered why larger boats like that, especially with EPA regs don't go to single point fueling like they do on Jets. It's a compression fitting that doesn't allow fuel spills, one of these days I"m going to ask that question to a yacht builder. So, at 30 gallons per minute, you're talking about an hour and half to fill the tank...assuming you're running on fumes. And the company that I talked to and will probably end up doing business with, said the longest hose they had was 100 feet! And are you ready for this, to my knowledge, their are only 4 companies in Houston who deliver fuel via truck! And Kemah, is supposed to be the third largest boating community in the U.S.? I still don't believe that statistic.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2014
  16. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Not if that 1,000 gallons is uploaded at a commercial facility outside the US, at that point you have passed through the portal to a world inhabited by a classof fuel and oil predators who know more about how to scam the system than any of us could ever even imagine.

    Flash point should be a concern (but rarely is to most small boaters) as off-road or automotive diesel has a much lower flashpoint standard than marine diesel fuel. This might not seem to matter much but when used in engines that don't have the fuel system protection required to meet SOLAS standards, a leak that might only have caused a bunch of white smoke may easily burn the boat. Marine diesel fuel has a flash point of 60*C (140*F) minimum ... the other stuff might be below 40*C (104*F) - big difference when it sprays or leaks over part of the exhaust system.

    Just for grins, asks the marina fuel pump guy to show you the specs of the last delivery they received. Here in Fort Lauderdale all the fuel docks I checked last year sold marine diesel, not automotive diesel, but if you fuel at "Bubba's Bait 'n Boat" in an agricultural area ... buyer beware.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Poor quality fuel and dodgy dealings are just as readily available in the contiguous 48 as anywhere else.

    A couple of years ago I know there was a big scene not far from you where 100,000 gal was refused owing to an off spec BDN and the arguments are still going on.
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Not to say you're wrong by any stretch, but for the small boats that fuel with 1,000 gals or less, these problems are usually caught at the distributor (terminal). Most small boats fuel locally. Their biggest threats come from stations with old tanks, tanks that got submerged in storms or fuel left over from the previous season. In all the hours I've logged I've only had two fuel problems. One was in Martha's Vinyard when we fueled prior to Memorial Day (first boat to fuel after winter), and the other was down in Ft. Pierce after a hurricane (where they apparently lied about their tanks having been submerged). I did have one other incident after fueling a commercial boat at the company's depot which would be more in line with the situations you run into with the big boats as they take delivery of tens of thousands of gallons at a time. Fortunately that only required one filter change. That company nor most fuel docks test their fuel deliveries as far as I know. All in all I'd have to say that the supply of diesel in the parts of the U.S. I've traveled as been pretty good.
  19. Chasm

    Chasm Senior Member

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    Fuel quality can be an issue, esp. if you need significant amounts of it.
    On this side of the pond and for small private boats fuel tax is the bigger problem. The oversimplification is that private boats are simply not egitable for the tax free stuff. Just like on the road it gets checked and taxman is certainly not amused.

    So traveling into nearby countries where all boats are egitable for the red stuff adds lots of fun with fuel logs, reciepts and customs declarations.

    For larger or commercial operations, not so much of a problem.
  20. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Not even commercial yachts can get Tax Free Fuel in Germany.