Click for YF Listing Service Click for Perko Click for Nordhavn Click for Westport Click for Ocean Alexander

38 Riviera Restoration

Discussion in 'Chris Craft Roamer Yacht' started by homer1958, Nov 19, 2009.

  1. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Where is the Bunk Bed?

    Well,

    Bunk-Beds are cool, but I wanted a classic exterior with an interior one could find in a new Italian style boat design. Most all corners are round, we do not like square corners. So, since the bunk was so deep, I saw the opportunity to do a pull-out double bed. It also has great curvature, both hotizontal and vertical.

    I think this boat messes up the Buck Book :)

    Attached Files:

  2. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Pain in the Transom Lockset

    It took three days to put in the lockset and porthole window which will be a two way mirror. Will something please go easily on this job? Nice inlay detail on porthole. In the end, you can see out, but not in.

    By eliminating the swing door open up many future options for the cockpit spacewise.

    Attached Files:

  3. Oneiros

    Oneiros Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    299
    Location:
    lulea Sweden the land of the midnightsun
    hi
    oh so fine details. hm wonder what it will and feel for yourself to see the boat with the new decor that you grew up with the boat
  4. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Outside Yes, Inside No

    The inside is production square. They had to to keep cost down. Chris craft was best known for strong hulls and good looks... if anything was not as high it was cabinet work. I took mine apart with an ax, so know how they made it. It was ok, but nothing special. The outside looks and the hull strength is something special. I know if a new Sea Ray hit me or you, it would be smashed to bits and sink. Roamers will win most games of Chicken... a scratch maybe while the other boat sinks. It never ceases to amaze me how much money people spend on some new junk boats... wehn higher quality old ones are around that are much more affordable.
  5. Oneiros

    Oneiros Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    299
    Location:
    lulea Sweden the land of the midnightsun
    Hi
    ok yes it is, think roamers are so fine lines and some furnishings are of course from the 1960s, our boat had a painted white but the previous owner has been milled mahogany so now I just oil it and try to preserve it.
  6. q240z

    q240z New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    zsedr
    To each his own, but I'm not entirely sold on what you've written here.

    My formerly abandoned 46 Roamer (Al) had completely locked up, plain steel rudders. Various oils, heat, banging with large mallets, and a 12-ton ram were not able to get them to budge, so I cut them out and replaced them. They locked up because byproducts of corrosion (rust, aluminum oxide, and whatever the original bronze gland nut contributed to the mess) was allowed to fill the space between the aluminum rudder log, the gland nut, and the rudder shaft for more than two decades without the rudders ever moving. Maintenance? Puh-lease. lol However, there is no reason to believe that a properly maintained and used boat would have had the same problem.

    For example, Chris Craft installed grease fittings on the rudder logs. But I would bet a pint of ale that the grease fittings never saw use after the boat left the factory floor in 1968. If grease had been applied during the years when the boat was actually in use, the metal would have been protected to a better degree. If the boat had been used regularly, any byproducts of corrosion would have been washed out with water while under way or pushed out with the aforementioned grease. So are we talking about a design flaw, or just typically shoddy maintenance?

    Also, one thing you don't get with plain steel that you might with stainless is crevice corrosion, and a rudder log seems like a prime place for it to happen.

    There's also the ol' galvanic table, which suggests that unless you're willing and able to make rudders out of uranium, plain steel is less inclined to eat the 5052 aluminum Chris Craft used in these hulls than stainless. http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corrosion/galvanic.htm

    In retrospect (and in full recognition that I'm hacking to some degree on this aspect of my own refit), plain steel rudders on a reasonably well maintained and used aluminum boat may not be dumb at all.

    On the benefits of PSS shaft seals for rudders, I'm not buyin' that at all. Plain old, inexpensive, waxed flax packing material in bronze spuds that are insulated from the hull by a length of hose works fine, is dry as a bone, and introduces an insignificant amount of resistance into the steering system. PSS, to my way of thinking, is complete and total overkill in that application.

    Just my $0.02...
  7. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    We shall agree to disagree... So let Roamerites decide

    The most commonly used alloy in the sheet metal boat market (ie: Lund, Mirrorcraft, Lowe, etc) is 5052. The most commonly used alloy in plate boatbuilding is 5086. Thus the question about the differences between the two?

    The answer is that 5052 is usually seen as an inferior alloy for hull building. It is about 30% less strong than 5086. It is less expensive than 5086 and easier to bend and work with.

    Thus the difference between 5052 and 5086 plate boats is notable. If you are building one boat out of 5052 and another out of 5086 the difference in strength is 30%.

    The 1969 38's were made of 5086, perhaps the 1969 46's were made of 5052 as you state?

    I shall post a photo of our 2008 PSS hydraullic rudder system. Please feel free to post yours. Let the audienece decide what they think. I certainly can learn a lot from many informed Roamerfiles on this site. I am not a know it all. Always eager to learn new things and to be corrected as well.

    There is no contact between this rudder post and the hull per se, bushings are isolated and the aluminum grade matches. Even if they did touch, I would think it is fine.
    This was manufactured to military spec by the folks who have the Navy refit contracts on the Chesapeake Bay. I wonder if it is legal to put a machine gun turret on the foredeck?

    Many Roamer captains who took out there bangy rudder posts noted the steel shafts had rusted away to a degree, in sum less diameter than when new. They also have atendency to seize if not cared for if a Roamer sits too long.

    We took the steel ones out and used them to poke holes in illegals to test their worthiness as a viable voting electorate for November 2012. They will need their votes for sure. We dumped the whole original system. Maybe Sea Star is bad? So far it works fine and steers like power almost... but of course it coud break. It seems ok though for any waves not larger than those rippling in an above ground pool.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  8. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Licoln Continental power seat motors

    Believe it or not.. if your trim tab motors go out... go to your local junk yard and get a 60's Lincoln Continental power seat motor... that's what these are from the factory. Sorry for not painting these yet.. but they are the originals and still work great. For those who are not aware.. there is a grease fitting on these motor shafts that you need to pack with outboard motor grease and they will operate smoother and quieter.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  9. Oneiros

    Oneiros Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2006
    Messages:
    299
    Location:
    lulea Sweden the land of the midnightsun
    Nice rudder mount.
  10. q240z

    q240z New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    zsedr
    I have heard of three different alloys used on the Chris Craft hull skins, 5052, 5086, and one that I can't recall right now, but I've never seen anybody bring forth anything to demonstrate for sure which is the one the company actually used. It seems odd that they'd have used a "superior material" for the 38s than the 46s. You wouldn't happen to have documentation on the 5086, would you? I know of at least one other Roamer owner who'd be extremely interested in seeing that.

    I'm guessing that none of the aluminum boats with worn out steel rudders you've mentioned got a shot of grease in the fitting every few years. If there's an issue for Roamerites to debate, my point is only that steel's a fine rudder material in an aluminum hull SO LONG AS you're greasing the log and using the vessel. Otherwise, things end up looking like this:

    [​IMG]



    On the rudders, I don't have a pic of mine installed. But anybody who's seen a Buck Algonquin spud attached to a log by a hose knows what the stuffing boxes looks like. I think it was $100 for the pair, with hoses and clamps. They're totally dry and turn very smoothly. Since bang for the buck is a consideration, what did your PSS's cost you?

    Anyway, here's the new rudders, rod, and cylinder before install. The wide angle lens makes it look like the rod is bent, but it's not. I went with HDPE bushings to isolate the stainless, but I do wonder if I created an environment for crevice corrosion in the process... Time will tell. Also, the cylinder is fully rebuildable.

    [​IMG]
  11. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Thanks

    Overkill, yes perhaps.. But, there is ZERO leaking of salt water into the bilge that, in and of itself, keeps the hull dry and will save the metal, We had some pitting where the steel was near the aluminum... so we just cut it out, placed new larger diameter rudder posts in to manage the new monster shafts. Mind you, this machine puts out nearly 1600 foot pounds of torque with 23 by 31 four Catapult 4 blades w/ two inch Aquamet 22's. She's an old agile beast hidden by her docile classic facade, does not make much noise either... meerly spits at idle. Hit the "Oil," turbos kick, while whistle blows while unprepared butts hit the deack sans warning. The pick-up is exhilerating. Sea Ray, Cruisers even Tiara... Please any time boys.. I will put the chips on this junk yard old heep any day... any day.

    Anyway, no more leaking, no more metals that react wtih one another. The inside of the hull was sland blasted in the engine room in spots not coated with the facory bituminous then painted with two part Awlgrip bilge paint. We don't screw around, and much of the work was done by me, just liek everyone else is doing.

    And, by the way, the welding job you are doing on your Roamer is spectacular! I love to see your photos. My girl came out of junk yard too... just like most of them. The Roamer knows no time she sits alone in the junk, oen of the few thant can be brought back to thier former glory if nto better!
    Captains have realized waht the Roamer is and what it can do. Sorry, not into cheap plastic boats. Old fiberglass from the 60's and very 70's yes, for example ealry Commaders are top notch too, but not some of this new stuff. I often here problems with rotting cores or osmotic waterlogged nightmares. Last I checked tankers were made of metal.. so enjoy your tanker!

    Another thing.. I coulf never seem to understand why water would get in the bilge after a rain... Guess where it came from... It comes from your air vents on the toe rail. I knocked out those cruddy wood air ducts and put in propper tubing and no more of that either. Metal boats do not like water in the bilge, no boat does for that matter. Keep it out. Also, keeping it out reduces the humidity in the engine room which also protects your machinery.

    Dry is good... even in humor.
  12. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    38/41/46 Hull Stats

    From 1969 Brochure

    Steel and Aluminum

    38 & 41 (Same Metal thicknesses) - 46 (Thicker yet)


    38 Riviera
    16,400 lbs Aluminum
    20,400 lbs Steel

    Aluminum Bottom 5086 .19 Plate
    Aluminum Sides 5086 .16 Plate
    Steel Bottom 11 Guage Plate
    Steel Sides 12 Guage Plate
    Aluminum Daft 34"
    Steel Draft 37"

    ----------------------------------------------
    41 Aluminum Weight 22,600
    There were no 41's made in Steel for 1969
    41's are very wide boats.. 15" and had a way of making an express crusier look more like a yacht.. three feet longer, perhaps slighly less streamlined than a 38, but a much larger interior for only 3 feet in length.


    46 Riviera

    40,776 lbs Aluminum
    49,012 lbs Steel

    Aluminum Bottom 5086 .25 Plate
    Aluminum Sides 5086 .25 Plate (Bottom and sides same thickness)

    Steel Bottom 10 Guage Plate
    Steel Sides 11 Guage Plate

    46 Aluminum Draft 43"
    46 Steel Draft 46.5"
    (Steel "Forward" appears to be 3/16" Plate)
    Whatever "Forward" means... I suspect it is slightly thinner in the steel "Forward" to offset weight to avoid "Plow" effect.

    The Aluminum remains a consistent .25 bottom on the 46"

    The boats ride differently.
    The Aluminum tends to get out of the water, runs higher and Faster.
    The Steel tends to have a mild plowing look underway.

    As a child in upstate NY were many Roamers were on Lake Ontario and the Saint Lawrence Seaway, I could tell by how their attitude was underway which ones were made of Steel and which ones Aluminum.

    Steel has a: "Get the heck out of my way" in wave blasting look underway.
    Aluminum has a more "I will kick you arse in a race look" underway.

    Alumiums cost more, were 2-3 MPH faster in the 38 class w/ 300 HP 427's
    The 327's were considered underpowered back then. (230 HP)
    The Ford 427 "TOP" Oilers were Ford Truck Blocks.. much superior engine torquewise for a boat than a 454. 454 slighyly faster/ Ford better boat engine. And FORD is commin back!


    Don't let anyone tell you a 38 w/ 427's any faster than 33 mph... that's what it did well-tuned and 4000 was perfect top RPM. That boat gets 1 mile per gallon at cruise. The diesls a 197 HP 853. Any Roamer can easily take TWICE the power that had back then. They also will keep going faster... those hulls are FAST. They are the perfect American classic restoration machine. They will hold value adn even if resotred today, will outlast a new boat or at least many of them.

    Most steel need work and new plating at some point or can. Done properly, great boat TOUGH!

    "Most" aluminum do not need work unless former owners were true morons (They exist.) Steels can be fine, but must be very carefully surveyed, are slower and take more fuel.

    Unless I hear otheriwse, I beleive I am the only owner and son of an original owner.

    I try hard to keep the Roamer legend alive, because I can tell you as a youngster, having a Roamer meant you had "The Bomb." Known for strength, speed and sexy good looks.

    If F. Lee Bailey ever sees this post.... which he may, (Palm Beach Roamer)
    I graduated from Cardigan in 1973.

    Hope all know a little bit more... and nobody will ever sell me on Capoc Voodoo.. get a Charles Indstry Isolation transfomer and a SeaHawk or Interlux
    Epoxy bottom and isolating your shafts with PSS shaft savers which will redice vibration greatly and isolate any current to or from your engine. Last but not least, it may one may save your transmission one day.
  13. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Spelling.. sheeesh

    Oh my gosh.. please excuse my spelling. it's not my spelling it's my typing... I know my IQ is at least 70 despite my typing.. sorry about that. I read what I wrote and thought: "man these Roamerfiles must think I'm Garp.:D
  14. q240z

    q240z New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    zsedr
    Spelling's for sissies. lol

    A buddy sent me some info he acquired from the Mariners' Museum on these boats last year that looks inconsistent with what you've got above. Then again, his was an excel file and who knows what the provenance is on these things? The brochure you're talking about...what is it exactly, and was it something your old man kept from the original purchase of the boat or was it sourced from the Mariners' Museum?

    It's too bad Chris Craft doesn't have the same historical continuity as, say, Hatteras.
  15. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    1969 Brochure

    I have the orignal brochure in like new condition for 1969. I have seen it on ebay before too.

    I do not care what they say, I am 100% sure of what I wrote. It's in the 1969brochure.

    I also went to the factory in 1970. My dad wanted the 1969 46' most with Diesels, but that's was a very rIch mans' boat. We were not that kind of rich.

    The owner of Granma Brown Baked Beans owned a 1969 46' with diesels. It was kept at Bonnie Castle Yacht Basin in Alexadra Bat New York. The boat's name was "Beefeater." http://www.bonniecastleyachtbasin.com/

    There were Three 41's and one 46' there, no 58's.

    There is a beautiful 41' aluminum for sale there. I can't believe it is still for sale. I mean a nice one! It has 427'S no diesels and never has been in salt and probably never got beat-up.

    One can see it on the borkerage section of the link included here. Somebody ought to grab that one for sure. I mean its a gorgeous 41! I can't believe the idots that spedn crazy money on some new junk boats!

    There is a 1970 Brochure on EBAY now which is the last one of the 46 breed. You can also check with Earl Sthilson or Jim Wick as they may know where some are. They are around, but rare.
  16. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    Gorgeous 41' Steel Roamer For Sale!

    http://www.bonniecastleyachtbasin.com/public/summary-info/summary.asp?ID=877


    Hopefully someone looking will go check this one out. I know where it comes from so it is probably a good one. It is located in Alexandria Bay New York and would be a wonderful trip to go get her and bring her wherever. Lake Ontario is only a 5 or 6 hour cruise down the St. Lawrence and you can either go up to Maine, or cross Lake Ontario to the cannel system bring her to Washington DC, The Chespapeake Bay or whatever. This is Roamerland up there where they were born and still live. The were rare in this size outside of the Great Lakes for the most part. NYS is a mess economically up there. Somebody may want to work this one!

    It does not show up anywhere online except in this brokerage list. Can't sell something nobody can find.

    I am telling you, this is very likely the 41 to die for! The floor plan Rocks too! Worth checking out. Make sure to do a survey so you don't buy a Swiss Cheese steely. Good chance she's ok. Don't know until you check.. This gal is a real ice breaker!i
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2010
  17. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
  18. q240z

    q240z New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2007
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    zsedr
    Can you scan that in a pdf? That would be a terrific online reference document for the Roamer community.

    On my '67 Connie, the previous owner got a few documents from the Mariner's Museum, but I was able to get the original invoice and Chris Craft build sheet--not copies-- for the boat from the dealer who sold it to the first owner. I couldn't believe it when the envelope arrived. Teak decks were a $1500 option??? The Buell airhorns were $565??? Amazing, and none of this was included in the Mariner's Museum docs.
  19. watjam

    watjam New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    68
    Location:
    We hail from Huron, Oh.
    Keep them pictures coming Homer! I'm starting to go through withdawls.
  20. homer1958

    homer1958 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2009
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Annapolis MD
    And the saga drags on & on...

    And on and on.... If anyone ever asks Homer the three largest challenges of Homer's days, this restoration is in the running. Homer will not expose the order of difficulty, blood, sweat and tears, but it's up there.

    A few things have been learned and why we should all resent what is going on in Washington regardeless of partisanship. There is no free lunch folks! And those who think they are entitled for any reason whatsoever, I mean any reason, be it nation of origin, familial, past, present, historical or otherwise can go kiss my transom. I know from my 51 years, the folks who truly succeed are not always the smartest, the fastest, the luckiest.. rather quit not, "have the courage of their convictions" with a vision from bow to transom without a cheat or a lie. This is not merely a challenge to float one's dreams.. it's about finding out who we be... who we be? AND, sacrifice has a price, circumvention not a calm port of call either. We will get or country back, the cheat or lie NEVER floats a checkered flag at the last bouy.

    1) If you have a dream, envison the goal and final product you dream of.
    You must know in the beginning what it will look like once the show's
    curtain opens, the audience enjoys the performance and the
    judging begins. You must envision this before you commence such a
    production.

    2) Never Quit, no matter how daunting, how discouraged, who kicks you,
    what confronts. Quitting = guaranteed failure. Better an "A"
    on the forehead than an "L" Hawthorne... at least it feels good. :)

    3) How do others know what you may have gone through... but can be
    fast to judge or become ostensibly envious rather than get off their
    own transoms and do something monumental for theselves, their nation,
    an epoque and/or those they enjoy.

    4) Know where you are sailing... "if you don't know where you are going,
    chances are you will not get there." Quote from Captain "Jack Clifford"
    got rest is soul as he was restoring the 50/50 Arthur Godfrey's Feadship,
    after the state of Maryland abused it while the gubintorial yacht. Yes,
    Jack Kennedy and Marylayn Monroe were on it... that chapter missing in
    the ship's log... wonder why?

    When 29 years old, Homer worked on her restoration for free beer only.
    Last thing "Captain Jack" ever said to me before he sailed onto his
    eternal waive was "Restore your father's Roamer... "he's your father and
    it's a Roamer." He closed the door and died. It's a true story. His mass
    was packed at the Naval Academy.. standing room only.

    I knew Captain Jack for 20 years, a Naval officer, Yale and and
    Georgtwon Law grad. The funniest, nicest appearing, smartest most
    innovative package I ever to this day met. No HANDOUTS... he did it on
    his own Washington. Should we now rename Washington DC "Arnold DC"
    after Benedict?

    5) I then went to the boat junk yard near Washington and pulled her out, she came a long
    way from Niagara Falls. I know aluminum and knew underneath it was all there.. and it was.
    My friend said I was nuts (we know that... da) and suggested a bondfire party! Yes, now
    and then I curse "Captain Jack"... a pain in my transon he was alive, and in his eternal life
    continues to be a pain in my transom. "Captain Jack" was my dad's buddy, they both were
    military officers, one Navy, one Airforce, both served both ordered to attend Georgetown
    Law on the GI Bill. Both had no money growing up, nobody gave them a thing!
    Homer's dad a shot down on mission #24 (B-24 bomber pilot at 19 years,) Nazi POW
    awarded full military honors last year at Arlington... Airforce planes, Regan shut
    down, the whole nine yards. He rests in Section 60 with our fallen boys from Iraq. It makes
    me sad, not so much for him,. he hit 84, but the fellow next to him only saw 18.... never
    got to tell his story.

    6) Restore America... her 60's and 70's Perhaps her Peak.... an era those who are now my
    age certainly remeber America as America. Though we have gone downhill since the 80's,
    I refuse to believe there is no hope. Recently Warren Buffet was asked...
    "Would you bet on America," His quick response: "You bet, and on margin too!"

    So, if you are reading this now... and have long wanted to bring back a classic, a
    piece of our history, a 60's boat or car or whatever.... there is one out
    there crying to be saved with your name on it. That suff is pretty cool and I guarantee
    they'll be saluting you, not Brewster Mouthy Big Bucks sporting the latest fad.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2010