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2 Diesel Questions - What Happen To..?

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by lwrandall, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. lwrandall

    lwrandall senior member

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    Question 1

    Did MTU take over Detroit Diesel and are the previous DD engines still around, Series 60 and Series 2000? Not sure if the Series 2000 was DD. If they are still around are their maintenance cost in line with Domestic manufactures or foreign manufactures?

    Question 2

    What happened to Cats C-18 Acert 1015hp engine?
  2. strat57

    strat57 New Member

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    #1 DD still has a web site and it appears they are manufacturing MTU/DD at the Redford facility. Try Googling "MTU Detroit Diesel"

    http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Public/brochures/6SA251.pdf
    http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Off-Highway/MtuDetroitDiesel/en/index.aspx
    http://www.mtu-online.com/mtu/en/produ/proddies/#c3983

    #2 Must still be available.... it's listed on their web site even though it's punctuated with an asterisk noting to contact the dealer for availability. Hopefully someone else here will be able to confirm it's availability. Otherwise just call your local CAT marine supplier.

    Here's a link to the CAT site.... http://marine.cat.com/cda/layout?f=200496&m=214803&x=7

    Amazing what a little Google can do for ya.... ;)
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    In the Sept 08 Marine Engine Selection Guide the asterisk next to this engine indicates that you need to check for LOCAL availability.

    They are very much still available as far as I am aware.

    I have recently seen an article where a Series 60 was stripped at some sort of technical show/presentation after 1,000,000 miles and everything was checked, most of it could be used again.

    I seem to recall that a trucking co out of Alabama maybe JB Hunt were used as a test bench for the first of those engines and they were stripped at around the same mileage with similar results.
  4. Jorge Lang

    Jorge Lang Senior Member

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    The C-18 is rated at 1015hp. The C-18 Acert is a new addition to the line producing 1150hp I think. K1W1, let me know if I am correct.
  5. m2m

    m2m Senior Member

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    I purchased a pair of C-18's about 8 months ago. Took a while to get them as they are made to order
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Jorge you are right, I have scanned the C 18 Pages for propulsion engines out of the Selection Guide I have here at home and they are in the attachment.

    C 18's are like a lot of the CAT Range- demand has been exceeding supply. If you want a pair of 3516's be prepared to wait more than a year if you are lucky.

    Attached Files:

  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    1. MTU bought out Detroit Diesel from Roger Penske. MTU stopped producing all of the DD engines and kept the DDEC system (detroit diesel engine control). The DDEC design and the DD dealer network was the only reason they bought Detroit Diesel. MTU now uses all of their own engines (engine designs) and mates the DDEC system to them to get the 12v2000's 16v2000's etc.

    They are still making the Series 60, however it will no longer be available from 2010 on as it does not meet the new emissions standards and MTU doesn't want to spend the money and research to get it there. The series 60's are good motors for both torque and longevity.

    DD/MTU actually pulled some of the test engines apart at 500k miles. I spoke to the mechanic that dyno'ed it and pulled it apart, the engine made more power with 500k miles on it then when it was new, had no wear inside, and when they installed new rebuild parts (rings, bearings, wear parts etc.) it made less HP on the dyno. He has seen some go well over 1million miles.

    2. CAT still produces C18's (1015hp version) and they are installed in many new boats. CAT's first priority is supplying manufacturer's with them and contracts, then selling engine's to the average Joe comes second.
  8. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Just today we have done a first big service on a pair of 3516's on a production boat, mostly nice but some service parts have changed already. One impeller broke-up after only 1500hrs so little bits of rubber went through the coolers. This boat is popping off to Norway in a couple of days but the owner/operator says its not worth pulling the inters, good call, huh? :confused:
  9. lwrandall

    lwrandall senior member

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    Thanks Capt J and K1W1. That's the info I was looking for. Trying to sift out the most current and correct info off of Google can be a challenge at best.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have never seen a rubber raw water pump impellor that was rated to go over 500 hours. I wouldn't think that the service manual recommends putting 1500 hours on the raw water pump impellors without changing them.
  11. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Capt J

    First BIG service all done within CAT service intivals, all the usual stuff done by the book, neatly done. Boats ain't perfect
  12. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I am not sure what pump you are saying about here.

    The 3500's I am familiar with do not use a flexible impeller pump in any part of the cooling system and never have. The main S.W. Pump and Charge Air Cooler Pumps are metal impeller pumps.

    Has it got Plate Coolers or Shell and Tube?

    The largest CAT I recall with a rubber Impeller was the 3412 but as I haven't dealt with one for a while not sure if they and their successors are not metal impeller pump units the C 18's are for sure.

    If the guy is having his first service at 1500 Hrs he should read the Owners manual, there is an important one at the first 1000 Hrs which includes checking the valve lash and changing the Oil, Oil and Fuel Filters plus SOS should be done every 250.

    What sort of "production boat" uses 3516's anyway?
  13. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    CATs


    First and foremost, I must admit I HATE dealing with CATs. These ones are about 850HP, so what the heck that means in CAT terminoligy is anyones guess, I think they make up engine numbers as they nail 'em together.

    I've had CATs on yachts and real fishing boats. Fine, they work.

    They are the dirtiest, smelliest, thuggist engines I've ever worked on. Nothing is logical in their layout, yes, all the basics are there but all the extra bits are dreadful. Making truck engines into marine ones should be left to the pros' please.

    Sorry K1W1, rant over..........for now :cool:

    Fish
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Fish- They must be special 3516's as they start at 1603 Hp in my book.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Cat's are my favorite and I think everything is laid out well, maintanence items are easy to get to, parts are cheap, and they run........with very few issues. Not to mention you can get CAT certified service and parts worldwide. Try getting to the aftercooler on a MAN to clean it every 2 years as the service manual suggests, it's a nightmare on the 1050's and 1300's (pre-common rails) that requires removing all kinds of stuff. Cat's can be a little noisy, but they offer a lot of low end torque, will idle all day without an issue, run clean, never have an oil leak......I prefer them, and I've run all of the different engines from Gardener and Perkins, to MTU 16v2000's and MAN common rails. The pre-common rail MANs and MTUs were horrible when it comes to smell under 1,000rpms, also blue smoke at cold start up...... in a sportfish they'd make you puke when you trolled with them.......

    You're not working on 3506's if they're 850hp.......It sounds more like 3406's possibly. A rubber impellor's service intervel on that motor is every 500hrs. 1500hrs on a rubber impellor is extraordinary. Also chances are those motors missed their major 1000hr service which includes lashing valves, checking turbo's, cleaning aftercoolers, etc. etc. etc. ohhh yeah and changing impellors.
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    CAT have never made a 6 cylinder 3500 Series engine that I have seen, read about or been told about.


    When I used to run 3306 Gensets which have a Rubber Impeller pump very similar to the 3400 Family the service manual used to say to inspect the Impeller at 2500 Hrs, there was always cracks in the Impeller by 2000 Hrs so I developed a routine to change them at 2000 Hrs and subsequently never had a failure.

    Changing them every 500 Hrs is a waste of the Owners money, if they are failing that quickly there is an external reason as to why maybe restricted inlet starving them water supply or working way beyond their design discharge pressure or shaft rotation speed.

    The 3500's and others require a Valve Lash check at the first 1000 Hrs and then every 2000 Hrs thereafter. The Engines with the deep sump can also do 1000 Hrs between Oil Changes but an SOS and Coolant Test should be done every 250 Hrs to make sure you are not missing any changes that are the precursor to major problems further along the track.

    Fish- How many cylinder heads does this CAT Engine you are working on have?
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    K1W1, things are different on a generator that is running 24 hours a day 7 days a week. The average usage a yacht sees in the US is less then 200 hours a year. We mostly change impellor's because of a time issue, I think most are recommended to change every 2 years or X amount of hours. It would take the majority of private yachts in the US over 10 years to accrue 2000 hours. Also most owners would rather change wear items ahead of time then risk suffering a failure of any kind that would hamper that once every 2-3 month trip.....

    I have seen a lot of impellors in US boats in bad shape at 500 hours. Cracking where the vane meets the body of the impellor and such. Missing teeth, etc.....Most of the CAT raw water pumps only last around 1,000 hours here in private yachts before they start leaking where the shaft goes into the housing......

    A genset that runs constantly maintains the same rpm, and the impellor runs and runs...... On a yacht everytime you start it when it's been sitting for 2 weeks, the impellor pretty much has to prime itself and so forth....... Also the rpm's are not constant and go up and down. I don't know of anyone that has gotten 2000 hours on an impellor in a main. Some area's are worse, if you run a yacht in the Mississippi River, you're changing water pumps every year because the silt in the water just grinds them away.

    Also all of the main propulsion C18's that I've worked on here in the US use a rubber impellor, all of the CAT's up to and including the C32 ACERT's as main propulsion use a rubber raw water impellor (that impellor is around $300US last time I bought one). This I know for a fact. The C32 impellors in the manual call for an inspection at the 500hr service along with oil change, zincs, SOS, coolant test (the extended life coolant usually only goes 2 years and supposedly according to my CAT guy the regular CAT coolant is better, CAT has had problems with scale and the extended life.) I am not familiar with large generator sets that are sea water cooled, CAT may be using a metal impellor in those........but definately not in the main propulsion engines, I think it has to do with the constant change in rpm's.

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