Click for Nordlund
Click for Westport
Click for JetForums
Click for Cheoy Lee
Click for Walker
Click for Dockwise
Go Back   YachtForums.Com > YACHT CLUBS > The YachtForums Yacht Club > The Wealth Gap Widens...

Login to YachtForums
Username
Password

Closed Thread

The Wealth Gap Widens...

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-08-2011, 01:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
Publisher/Admin
 
YachtForums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Florida
Posts: 18,134
The Wealth Gap Widens...

Could we be on the verge of anarchy?

US wealth gap between young and old is widest ever - Boston.com

Quote:
WASHINGTON - The wealth gap between younger and older Americans has stretched to the widest on record, worsened by a prolonged economic downturn that has wiped out job opportunities for young adults and saddled them with housing and college debt.

The typical U.S. household headed by a person age 65 or older has a net worth 47 times greater than a household headed by someone under 39, according to an analysis of census data released Monday.

While people typically accumulate assets as they age, this gap is now more than double what it was in 2005 and nearly five times the 10-to-1 disparity a quarter-century ago, after adjusting for inflation.

The analysis by the Pew Research Center reflects the impact of the economic downturn, which has hit young adults particularly hard. More are pursuing college or advanced degrees, taking on debt as they wait for the job market to recover. Others are struggling to pay mortgage costs on homes now worth less than when they were bought in the housing boom.
The report, coming out before the Nov. 23 deadline for a special congressional committee to propose $1.2 trillion in budget cuts over 10 years, casts a spotlight on a government safety net that has buoyed older Americans on Social Security and Medicare amid wider cuts to education and other programs. Complaints about wealth inequality, high unemployment and student debt also have been front and center at Occupy Wall Street protests around the country.

"It makes us wonder whether the extraordinary amount of resources we spend on retirees and their health care should be at least partially reallocated to those who are hurting worse than them," said Harry Holzer, a labor economist and public policy professor at Georgetown University who called the magnitude of the gap "striking."

The median net worth of households headed by someone 65 or older was $170,494. That is 42 percent more than in 1984, when the Census Bureau first began measuring such data broken down by age. The median net worth for the younger-age households was $3,662, down by 68 percent from a quarter-century ago, according to the Pew analysis.

Net worth includes the value of a person's home, possessions and savings accumulated over the years, including stocks, bank accounts, real estate, cars, boats or other property, minus any debt such as mortgages, college loans and credit card bills. Older Americans tend to have higher net worth because they are more likely to have paid off their mortgages and built up more savings over time.

Because the Pew report examines households at the midpoint of the economic scale, it does not delve deeply into changes occurring at the top and bottom of the distribution. A new census measure released Monday shows the poverty rate to be higher than previously known - about 15.9 percent for Americans 65 or older, compared to the official 9 percent rate reported in September. Working-age adults ages 18-64 also saw increases in poverty - from 13.7 percent to 15.2 percent.

Nancy LeaMond, an executive vice president of AARP, noted that older Americans spend a disproportionate share of their income on out-of-pocket medical care, compared to other groups. "Millions of older Americans today continue to struggle to make ends meet," she said. "Many older Americans do own their homes, but plummeting housing values - along with dwindling savings, stagnant pensions and prolonged periods of unemployment - have taken their toll."

The 47-to-1 gap in net worth between old and young is believed by demographers to be the highest ever, even predating government records.
In all, 37 percent of younger-age households have a net worth of zero or less, nearly double the share in 1984. But among households headed by a person 65 or older, the percentage in that category has been largely unchanged at 8 percent.

While the gap in net worth has been widening gradually due to delayed marriage and increases in single parenting among young adults, the housing bust and recession have made it significantly worse.

For young adults, the main asset is their home. Their housing net worth dropped 31 percent from 1984, the result of increased debt and falling home values. In contrast, Americans 65 or older were more likely to have bought homes long before the housing boom and thus saw a 57 percent gain in housing net worth even after the bust.

Older Americans are staying in jobs longer, while young adults now face the highest unemployment since World War II. As a result, the median income of older-age households since 1967 has grown at four times the rate of those headed by the under-39 age group.

Social Security benefits account for 55 percent of the annual income for older-age households, unchanged since 1984. The retirement benefits, which are indexed for inflation, have been a consistent source of income even as safety-net benefits for other groups such as low-income students have failed to keep up with rising costs. The congressional supercommittee that is proposing cuts has been reviewing whether to trim college aid programs, such as by restricting eligibility or charging students interest on loans while they are still in school.

Paul Taylor, director of Pew Social & Demographic Trends and co-author of the analysis, said the report shows that today's young adults are starting out in life in a very tough economic position. "If this pattern continues, it will call into question one of the most basic tenets of the American Dream - the idea that each generation does better than the one that came before," he said.

Other findings:

-Households headed by someone under age 39 had their median net worth reduced by 27 percent in 2009 as a result of unsecured liabilities, mostly a combination of credit card debt and student loans. No other age group had anywhere near that level of unsecured liability acting as a drag on net worth.

-Wealth inequality is increasing within all age groups. Among the younger-age households, those living in debt have grown the fastest while the share of households with net worth of at least $250,000 edged up slightly to 2 percent. Among the older-age households, the share of households worth at least $250,000 rose to 20 percent from 8 percent in 1984; those living in debt were largely unchanged at 8 percent.

Sheldon Danziger, a University of Michigan public policy professor who specializes in poverty, noted skyrocketing college tuition costs, which come as many strapped state governments cut support for public universities. Federal spending on Pell Grants to low-income students has risen somewhat, but covers a diminishing share of the actual cost of attending college.
"The elderly have a comprehensive safety net that most adults, especially young adults, lack," Danziger said.
YachtForums is online now  
Old 11-08-2011, 03:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
RER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by YachtForums View Post
Could we be on the verge of anarchy?
That's a lot of statistical data to digest... and scary.

"The 47-to-1 gap in net worth between old and young is believed by demographers to be the highest ever, even predating government records"

Predating government records? Then, how would they even know?

"While the gap in net worth has been widening gradually due to delayed marriage and increases in single parenting among young adults, the housing bust and recession have made it significantly worse"

True, and the first three are self inflicted, and are contributing factors to the recession.

"Households headed by someone under age 39 had their median net worth reduced by 27 percent in 2009 as a result of unsecured liabilities, mostly a combination of credit card debt and student loans. No other age group had anywhere near that level of unsecured liability acting as a drag on net worth"

But I'll bet they always have the latest & greatest gadget as soon as Apple rolls it out.

"Sheldon Danziger, a University of Michigan public policy professor who specializes in poverty, noted skyrocketing college tuition costs, which come as many strapped state governments cut support for public universities"

I am painfully aware. I have two daughters in college. Both are students at Big Ten schools. It's over $50K per student per year!

"Complaints about wealth inequality, high unemployment and student debt also have been front and center at Occupy Wall Street protests around the country"

I think the Occupy Protests are a direct result of the current administration and it's class warfare rhetoric, holding a match to the fuse for purely political purposes. Even Bill Clinton has said that Obama's criticism of Wall Street is "too harsh" and "counterproductive" ...and as for "complaints about wealth inequality" The only solution, for what it's worth, can be found in the history books - it is for the Government to have the wealth, and make sure it's citizens are equally poor.
RER is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 04:48 PM   #3 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver BC and Florida
Posts: 846
wealth

When Giuliani in NY said, " occupy a job" there is more truth in that than what some want to believe, those that dropout of school, those teens and young adults who decide that drugs and violence are an easy out, theft, muggings, California jails full, early release of prisoners, turning alcohol abuse into a "disease" so you can't be fired, turning stress into a work related illness, not letting employers fire workers for cause unless the offence continues after 3 warnings, and on and on it goes, the smart parent whose kids stay in school, learn properly will turn out to be part of the "wealthy" and then be scorned and overtaxed to support those who fail to occupy their school, their job and normal legal activities.
Why can't we call a spade a spade instead of a shovel ?? excuses just keep going on..
dennismc is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 05:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 5,728
Most of it is caused by the actions of the younger generation. I'm only 34 and consider myself the exception, financially for people my age, as my wealth and net worth for the most part continues to grow, but I'm very conservative in my lifestyle compared to most my age.

But, the mentality has changed. For example when I went to college, nobody got student loans, it was rare and pretty much unheard of unless you were going to law school or med school. You just worked to pay for going to school. I worked full time and went to college full time to get my bachelors and so did most people. Also, a decade ago or so you pretty much paid cash for a car, and most people my age drove used. Now it's pretty much standard for a 23 year old to go out and lease or borrow money on a car. The trend in clothing has changed also. 10 years ago, $2500 purses were almost unheard of. Now every corporate working woman is carrying one, regardless if they're only making $36k a year. Same with the housing, people nowadays buy the most they can get approved for......It's the finance everything generation and walk along the edge of the cliff. Now when so many have lost their overpaying jobs, they then lost everything else because they have no savings and weren't living within their means.

I think real unemployment is darn close to 20% here in the U.S. when you also include underemployment and the same job paying considerably less. Well that's now effecting 35-40% of people, because most households (under 47) are two person households, so if 1 loses their job it negatively effects both........
Capt J is offline  
Old 11-08-2011, 05:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver BC and Florida
Posts: 846
wealth

Yes, a lot of truths there, I remember 30 yrs ago we used to say that all Government jobs were in actuality "hidden unemployment" add that to the figures along with 40-45 % of the eligible population not paying income tax and the recipe just gets more volatile, the students walking out of the Harvard economics class is a prime example of the misguided attitudes of the younger set today, imagine a parent struggling to put their kid through Harvard, ?60k per year and the kid skips class to join the "occupy" group...disgusting lack of respect from our future "leaders".
dennismc is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 12:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: French Riviera...
Posts: 302
On subject and relevent I believe, copying a reply to an email adressed to the chief superintendent of 1 x 85m and (due to launch in 2012) 1 x 145m motor yachts:
Quote:
Dear XXXXX,

I hope you received my previous reply concerning the (subject deleted).I take this opportunity to reply to you concerning the situation in Greece or as you put it: "I hope all is ok in France because in Greece no good."

The news coming out of Greece is indeed very sad. I've heard that the Greek government has cut many public sector salaries by 20-30% and that even basic pensions have been cut by as much as 15-20% which must mean a lot of hardship and difficulties there (and especially for the people who are either too old to do anything about their circumstances like the pensioners, or people who simply cannot find another job or "2nd job" to make up for the recent drop in salaries)...

On the other hand, I also read that there were supposed to be only about 5,000 officially-registered villas with swimming pools in Greece (because the villa-owner must pay additional taxes if he has a swimming pool), yet someone using Google Earth recently was able to discover over 100,000 villas in Greece with swimming pools - all those villa-owners have obviously been neglecting to declare their swimming pools and pay their legitimate taxes. Also, Greece-based shipping companies represent something like 5% of Greece's GDP, yet pay no Greek taxes on their profits...?! When you have these types of discrepancies, it's no wonder that the Greek economy is being destroyed. The Greek doctors and dentists who declare an income of under Euro 10,000 per year yet drive around in expensive 4X4 Range Rovers etc. And what about the Greek Othodox church, the main church in Greece, whose leaders get driven about in Jaguar limousines? This Church owns perhaps 50% of all the land in Greece. They pay no taxes and often apparently operate like a normal commercial enterprise when it suits them. Maybe ordinary Greeks should start asking questions and demanding answers from the Church...?!

I believe anyway that Greece's outgoing Prime Minister George Papandreou was a pawn of the USA and UK so far as his handling of the Greek debt crisis and wider Eurozone crisis is concerned. For all their public statements, telling the markets that they believe in the stability of the Eurozone, they do nothing concrete to help. For the USA and the UK, the destruction of the Eurozone and currency would have them crying, but with joy?! Before the Euro existed, most of the World's nations used the US dollar as the main reserve currency. Since the Euro came into being, the Euro has slowly but surely eaten into the US dollar's previously and almost exclusive domain as THE WORLD'S reserve currency - I believe that today, the Euro represents perhaps 35-40% of the World's holdings of foreign (reserve) currencies, and would replace the US dollar under better circumstances. So far as UK is concerned, by encouraging and concentrating the spot-light on the Eurozone economies, they manage to distract the markets from the UK's own severe difficulties. Including those of an economy where 40% of all corporate taxes in UK were once paid by the UK's financial companies including banks etc. Many of which needed rescuing after the 2008/9 crisis and are today in government hands. The UK certainly don't want comparisons to be made with Iceland and their "financial sector" whose assets totalled at least 10 times the GDP of the country when it all fell apart, compared with the "financial sector" in UK whose assets apparently total a mere 4 times the UK's GDP...?!

So far as own personal situation is concerned, I shall be once again solvent sometime in 2014 after paying off all the loans I've undertaken recently to make up for the short-fall in income and sales over the past 3-4 years. Almost 20 years ago, I would always have a suitable shore-power plug in my van, just in case I saw a "new" yacht coming into port and which I would lend to the yacht (or eventually sell them) after docking. For about the last 13/14 years, I relied on "word of mouth" from 1 captain / engineer to another for new business. But the last 3-4 years, so many of the older captains / engineers have retired or gone off to do other things, and "word of mouth" doesn't work anymore. I'm only 50 years old, have a steady job and should still be able to adapt and change to these new circumstances.

You cannot compare that to the situations of some Greek pensioners who suddenly find themselves with pensions worth 20% less than they were used to receiving, too old to work or find a job especially in today's situation. It seems to me that the implicit guarantees that once existed between generations and social circumstances are currently being simply ignored or being destroyed by many countries's policies (not just Greece, but France and elsewhere also) in their efforts to satisfy the desires of "the market". Most 1st World countries destroyed the power of their trade unions several decades ago. The only trade unions worthy of that name that remain are generally those operating in the public sectors. In France, the employers managed to bribe the heads and decimate most of the trade unions operating in the private sector. There is noone left to fight the government, and if able-bodied (non-unionised) private-sector workers won't get involved collectively, what chance is there for those long-term unemployed over the age of 50, those already retired and receiving pensions etc. under the current circumstances...?!

Apparently 1st World governments today have almost collectively decided that their only policy is to expose all their citizens to "a dog eat dog world and the survival of the fittest" (whilst still being there to cough up billions / trillions in almost interest-free loans to private enterprises including high-street banks (and indirectly to hedge funds and the rest of the "financial sector") which politicians of all colours hold so dear (you wonder why sometimes, but we're not talking about Kenya or equivalent are we)...

God help us all...
airship is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 02:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bayside Bert28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Northport Maine
Posts: 371
I can only speak from the employers point of view.

As legal and regulatory costs have gone through the roof in the USA, we have done what we must do to survive. In my case I opened a Philippines office where I now employ over 100 people taking money from the US economy and giving it to theirs.

Meanwhile, we terminated much middle management in the USA and reduced salary, benefits and commissions for those left in the USA. We also closed a Denver CO office largely due to the intense regulatory requirements of having an additional office.

With the unemployment rate high in the USA, competition is high for even the mediocre jobs that we offer.

These changes have given us at least the extra half million we need each year to spend on frivolous lawsuits, runaway regulation and rising taxes.

I figure this is what the American people want because they keep voting in the politicians who grow our government.

And ... Yes ... My income is rising,

The USA is doomed.
Bayside Bert28 is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 02:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,773
Quote:
I can only speak from the employers point of view.

As legal and regulatory costs have gone through the roof in the USA, we have done what we must do to survive. In my case I opened a Philippines office where I now employ over 100 people taking money from the US economy and giving it to theirs.

Meanwhile, we terminated much middle management in the USA and reduced salary, benefits and commissions for those left in the USA. We also closed a Denver CO office largely due to the intense regulatory requirements of having an additional office.

With the unemployment rate high in the USA, competition is high for even the mediocre jobs that we offer.

These changes have given us at least the extra half million we need each year to spend on frivolous lawsuits, runaway regulation and rising taxes.

I figure this is what the American people want because they keep voting in the politicians who grow our government.
How in the world do you square that statement with
Quote:
And ... Yes ... My income is rising,

That completely validates the OWS position.
NYCAP123 is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 03:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Vancouver BC and Florida
Posts: 846
Wealth

I guess NYC knows what the income was before ???
dennismc is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by dennismc View Post
I guess NYC knows what the income was before ???
No, only that most salaries have gone down or disappeared completely. Any increase in income is a good thing, not news most workers get.
NYCAP123 is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 5,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCAP123 View Post
How in the world do you square that statement with

That completely validates the OWS position.
He's the owner, he's got his butt on the line as well as his time and money, his income should rise. What's he's saying is the cost of doing business with BS lawsuits, BS regulations, and BS fee's have caused him to move jobs elsewhere and would cause anyone of sane mind to move jobs elsewhere. Over-taxing businesses just causes businesses to leave. Businesses don't usually mind paying fair taxes, but when government gets greedy, they just get out of government.

Let me ask you an honest question NYCAP. If NY state increased their state income tax so that it was 30% higher than NJ income tax all of a sudden, and NJ was 30 minutes away from where you live. Would you not move to NJ so you weren't paying 30% more in taxes. You would move in a NY minute and so would most people and they commute from NJ to NY everyday for work. It's no different than businesses.
Capt J is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 04:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 5,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCAP123 View Post
No, only that most salaries have gone down or disappeared completely. Any increase in income is a good thing, not news most workers get.
Most workers make what they should make and who says they're "entitled" to an increase in pay. If the job didn't pay enough the worker would not stay in the job, nor would the company be able to hire another person to fill that job.

Here's what you fail to understand. If that worker wants to make what the owner of the company is making. That worker should then take all of the risk, put his families future on the line and possible income for the rest of his life (keep in mind MOST businesses fail), raise the capital to start the business and possibly carry it for years, and then open his own company. I personally know of a lot of people that lost their life savings and are in debt for the rest of their lives, trying to open a business and make it profitable, only to do their best and fail.
Capt J is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,773
Actually, I would not move to NJ or anyplace else for lower taxes. I like NY. I like the people. I support my neighbors even if it costs me money. I live and find a way to survive where I do because it's my home. I'd rather sink with my neighbors than survive at their peril. It's called loyalty. As far as business owners taking risks, do you not think employees take risks. They often work for less than they need to survive at the whim of their employers. They can lose everything tomorrow in a day. They are more often than not the last ones to know when the rug is going to be pulled out from under them. Business owners know when things are going south and have a chance to prepare. Business owners take calculated risks in the hope of earning great rewards. Employees have no hope of getting big rewards unless they hit the lottery. It's all relative. If an employer makes money he has a moral obligation to share that good fortune with those who made it possible for him to profit. He has a moral obligation to support his country and his neighbors. Of course though business only cares about legal obligations. Hence the animosity felt by those condemning big business. As for taxes, regulations and law suits, Deal with it. That's always been the price of going for the big rewards. Business is a gamble, but a calculated one. It's why the boss makes the big bucks. I just don't believe in these bosses who take theirs off the top.
NYCAP123 is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 05:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
RER
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newport Beach CA
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCAP123 View Post
That completely validates the OWS position.
The OWS movement... a generation of kids who played sports where everybody got a trophy just for paticipating.
RER is offline  
Old 11-10-2011, 06:51 PM   #15 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
NYCAP123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by RER View Post
The OWS movement... a generation of kids who played sports where everybody got a trophy just for paticipating.
A decision made by their parents who wanted them to get everything for nothing. Finally they are taking control of their own destiny. Hopefully they do a better job with the world than their parents did. I recently heard them compared to the radicals of the 60's, supposedly as an insult. Of course those dirty hippies and radicals brought an end to segregation, an end to a war, environmental awareness, the vote for 18 year olds, women's rights and amazing advances through the space program as well as bringing down a corrupt president. Many are now our legislators and leaders. Hopefully this group won't name their kids sunshine and flower though, and they have taken down some dictators already. Youth is very powerful, not to be underestimated or dismissed. As the song goes "get out of the new road if you can't lend a hand for the times they are a changin' "
NYCAP123 is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are EST. The time now is 03:41 AM.

Click for Alexseal
Click for Pacific Mariner
Click for Christensen
Click for Lurssen
Click for Llebroc
Click for Ocean Alexander


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2