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Old 11-16-2011, 05:40 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Although I believe in loyalty, I strongly oppose stupidity. Many people whom are financially underwater right now are there because of their own doing. They had to refinance to the hilt after they payed way too much to begin with so they could have the biggest house and the best toys, for awhile...I'm not wealthy by any means...I've been out of work since 1/28/11 and have not missed a house payment on the home in which I live nor the vacation home I own in Tahoe or the moorage slip for my 32' chriscraft Roamer...I'm not a genius by any means but I certainly know that a booming market will not last forever...Shame on the people whom have played the blame game and not taken responsibility for his own actions...I understand that not everyone fits this bill but there are a lot of people that want the bail out for their own irresponsible actions...If we want this situation to get better, then we need to shoulder the share of responsibility that we own...a business is a business...The owners are in it to make money...As a worker, the only thing you can do is your best to make that business succeed...That's not just loyalty, that's American pride...
The problem is that way too many Americans have lost that American Pride. Way too many Americans are looking to the government for some kind of hand out, instead of doing what they've got to do to survive. 48% of Americans are recieving some sort of government assistance and 52% of Americans aren't paying any income tax. Where's the pride in that. There have been times when I was jobless and broke, yet never once did I collect any type of government assistance. I washed boats, fixed whatever I could, to make a buck and pay my bills and nothing then was beneath my pride.
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:11 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Way too many Americans are looking to the government for some kind of hand out, instead of doing what they've got to do to survive. 48% of Americans are recieving some sort of government assistance and 52% of Americans aren't paying any income tax.
I believe we brought much of this on ourselves regarding the OWS thing.
We have raise a bunch of kids, ( still kids, regardless of their age ) that have been given everything and had zero resposibility.
If they did poorly in school it was the teacher's fault.
If they did poorly in athletics, they got a trophy anyhow.
These kids were never taught how to stand on their own.
They always have had Mom & Dad to bail them out. And Mom and Dad loved their kids and didn't want them to get hurt so bail them out they did.
Now that these kids are older and are expected to take responsibility for themselves, they are not equiped to do so and want the Gov't to take over where Mom and Dad left off.

Hence the " pay my college tuition " demands.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:00 AM   #63 (permalink)
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I believe we brought much of this on ourselves regarding the OWS thing.
We have raise a bunch of kids, ( still kids, regardless of their age ) that have been given everything and had zero resposibility.
If they did poorly in school it was the teacher's fault.
If they did poorly in athletics, they got a trophy anyhow.
These kids were never taught how to stand on their own.
They always have had Mom & Dad to bail them out. And Mom and Dad loved their kids and didn't want them to get hurt so bail them out they did.
Now that these kids are older and are expected to take responsibility for themselves, they are not equiped to do so and want the Gov't to take over where Mom and Dad left off.

Hence the " pay my college tuition " demands.
I think you're absolutely right on the first part (although it's a problem that we created, not them), but I think what they expected was the opportunity to earn a living, and a level playing field. I don't see anybody asking for a hand out.
As for the "pay my tuition" demands, I'm from the old school thinking of "You borrow it, you pay it back". Although the thought of starting life with unaffordable housing, no job and a $100,000 debt raises some issues. Maybe college is good for the nation, but the school of hard knocks is a better school to attend for most. We have too many (in their minds) future CEOs and not enough people planning to just work. But then again, if there are no middle class jobs then it's CEO or poverty. Perplexing dilemma, and the one that OWS is seeking an answer to.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:39 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I think you're absolutely right on the first part (although it's a problem that we created, not them), but I think what they expected was the opportunity to earn a living, and a level playing field. I don't see anybody asking for a hand out.
As for the "pay my tuition" demands, I'm from the old school thinking of "You borrow it, you pay it back". Although the thought of starting life with unaffordable housing, no job and a $100,000 debt raises some issues. Maybe college is good for the nation, but the school of hard knocks is a better school to attend for most. We have too many (in their minds) future CEOs and not enough people planning to just work. But then again, if there are no middle class jobs then it's CEO or poverty. Perplexing dilemma, and the one that OWS is seeking an answer to.
I worked full time and paid for my schooling and went to college full time at a state university. I did it then, and it can be done now. This BS where kids finance their entire college education to get a bachelor's degree is utter BS. Kids are just lazy. If you are in law school or med school, where you have no time to work a job also, then it's acceptable to get a student loan. But every kid nowadays finances their bachelors degree because they're simply lazy.

There are jobs out there, the college graduates don't want to take a job fresh out of college for $32k a year. They expect $50k +. What is someone with a sheet of paper in their hand and no prior job experience worth? When I had graduated (granted I did not get a job with my BS in finance), I had already held assistant management positions for other companies and also had owned a few successful businesses with my own. Most kids these days go through college without having ever had to work a job, and have no real world job experience whatsoever coming out of college. Even if a kid works at a Grocery store stocking shelves prior to graduating college, they know responsibility of showing up on time, customer service, pick up how a business operates, and many other things. How is someone supposed to get a management job fresh out of college at the same grocery store with a management degree, if they have no idea how to manage people or what a grocery store's day to day operations are. A degree is only a sheet of paper, just like a Captain's license. It really boils down to the real world experience they have on their resume, and/or the real world experience they've had behind the helm, same thing. It's the person behind the degree that gets the job, not the sheet of paper they're holding. I think $15/hr ($32k a year) is more than enough money for over half of the fresh college graduates with a Bachelor's degree that are still sucking on mommy for life support, yet they've been brainwashed that a sheet of paper will guarantee them $50k instantly.

I too agree that too many parents have babied their kids, and made them unable to be self sufficient.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:55 AM   #65 (permalink)
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The China you're referring to is a lot less than 200 to 300 years old. More like 60 and they've been trying to accumulate a military advantage since day one. The only thing that has kept them from attacking the U.S. militarily is fear. So now they're doing it economically.
Please git a hold of yer britches thare NYCAP123...?! The USA apparently spends more today in real terms (not just as a % of GDP) on military spending and self-defense than all the other 193 member states recognised as members of the UN combined. Think about that. Then consider and perhaps comment on, who in fact trully are the global aggressors and/or peace-keepers...?!

And if all these other 193 EU member states spend so little, perhaps it's simply because they can't afford to (or just won't simply anymore) spend unaffordable sums to support their own corrupt military-industrial complexes like you have to in USA...?!

IMHO, the USA should "START" talks with China asap. With the intention of negotiating limits on the number of aircraft-carriers each of these 2 countries should be allowed to operate over the next 10-20 years. It's abundantly clearer today that the USN / USAF program to gradually replace existing combat aircraft with the JSF aircraft variants is comparable to throwing billions of dallars down the drain. When operating off a carrier for example, these new generation aircraft will have an operational range which is much less than the distance the carriers will have to remain offshore from say the Chinese mainland, protected by current generation Chinese anti-ship cruise and ballistic missiles...?! Forgive me for my sarcasm, but unavoidable.

It's perhaps high-time that the USA perhaps considered spending 50% of its' defense budget in programs which contributed to the immediate well-being of civilian populations, even in nations where "purported enemies and terrorists" usually rule. And finish with dealing with dictators (Ghaddafi springs to mind)...?

My 2 cents worth...
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:07 AM   #66 (permalink)
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There are jobs out there
Care to name the company that is hiring that doesn't have 1,000 applicants for each position offered?
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I think $15/hr ($32k a year) is more than enough money
In my area a garbage house or apartment is about $1,300 a month. That's $15,600 per year before heat, elec, water, groceries, a car and gas for that car (no public transportation doesn't cut it here and most employers won't hire you if you must depend on it) plus 8.65% sales tax. $32,000 - 28% tax = $23,040. That leaves $7,440 per year to pay all those other life necessities plus $100,000 debt. You've just described poverty. BTW, most jobs offered to those with no experience are paying under $10 per hour and offer not benefits or insurance. I spent (1) night in a hospital this summer. $28,000. They wanted to keep me longer and threatened that my insurance could refuse payment if I left. At least I had insurance though, and enough clout to make my threats more intimidating than theirs.
Oh and BTW, there is a movement afoot to abolish the minimum wage as well as to break all unions. What will starting salaries & benefits be then?
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:21 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cowboyznindian View Post
Although I believe in loyalty, I strongly oppose stupidity. Many people whom are financially underwater right now are there because of their own doing. They had to refinance to the hilt after they payed way too much to begin with so they could have the biggest house and the best toys, for awhile...I'm not wealthy by any means...I've been out of work since 1/28/11 and have not missed a house payment on the home in which I live nor the vacation home I own in Tahoe or the moorage slip for my 32' chriscraft Roamer...I'm not a genius by any means but I certainly know that a booming market will not last forever...Shame on the people whom have played the blame game and not taken responsibility for his own actions...I understand that not everyone fits this bill but there are a lot of people that want the bail out for their own irresponsible actions...If we want this situation to get better, then we need to shoulder the share of responsibility that we own...a business is a business...The owners are in it to make money...As a worker, the only thing you can do is your best to make that business succeed...That's not just loyalty, that's American pride...
You're a very fortunate person or at least you were until 10 months ago. Most people have a 3 month cushion if they're lucky. Obviously, if you've been able to accumulate those toys, you're a very accomplished person. That leads to the question of why you're still OOW after 10 months. We all know the answer and I don't get the feeling it's because you're lazy. Makes one wonder about the possibilities for the 99%. Good luck.
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Old 11-17-2011, 11:24 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Airship, you'll be happy to know that our defense budget is about to be slashed big time or so it appears. Hopefully there will be no more need to spend our future on it again in the near future.
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Old 11-17-2011, 01:44 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Care to name the company that is hiring that doesn't have 1,000 applicants for each position offered?
In my area a garbage house or apartment is about $1,300 a month. That's $15,600 per year before heat, elec, water, groceries, a car and gas for that car (no public transportation doesn't cut it here and most employers won't hire you if you must depend on it) plus 8.65% sales tax. $32,000 - 28% tax = $23,040. That leaves $7,440 per year to pay all those other life necessities plus $100,000 debt. You've just described poverty. BTW, most jobs offered to those with no experience are paying under $10 per hour and offer not benefits or insurance. I spent (1) night in a hospital this summer. $28,000. They wanted to keep me longer and threatened that my insurance could refuse payment if I left. At least I had insurance though, and enough clout to make my threats more intimidating than theirs.
Oh and BTW, there is a movement afoot to abolish the minimum wage as well as to break all unions. What will starting salaries & benefits be then?
Well, in your area things might be different and so might wages be. However, most 23 year olds graduating college could live fairly nicely on $32k a year in 95% of the country. What do you expect a 23 year old should expect to make $100k a year? Again, there is no excuse for financing your entire bachelors degree, there is plenty of time to work full time to pay for your full time college education. I did it, and so did many of my friends. Then again, we are all successful because we have the will to work and go out and work for what we want, not borrow for it. I also know of plenty of people making 6 figures with NO college education, but they have intelligence and a good work ethic. Hell, there are lots of Captains making 6 figures with no college education. There are lots of Captains making $75k a year on a full time postion with no living expenses and benefits.

It's a poor excuse. There are jobs out there. Everyone I know is employed, and the ones that aren't didn't have a good work ethic to begin with (of the people I know). Companies always can the ****** employees first. In fact I've turned down 4 Full Time Captaining positions this year that all paid very well, for good owners, on good boats, with a good program. All I needed to get the job was say yes.
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Old 11-17-2011, 02:03 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Well, in your area things might be different and so might wages be. However, most 23 year olds graduating college could live fairly nicely on $32k a year in 95% of the country. What do you expect a 23 year old should expect to make $100k a year? Again, there is no excuse for financing your entire bachelors degree, there is plenty of time to work full time to pay for your full time college education. I did it, and so did many of my friends. Then again, we are all successful because we have the will to work and go out and work for what we want, not borrow for it. I also know of plenty of people making 6 figures with NO college education, but they have intelligence and a good work ethic. Hell, there are lots of Captains making 6 figures with no college education. There are lots of Captains making $75k a year on a full time postion with no living expenses and benefits.

It's a poor excuse. There are jobs out there. Everyone I know is employed, and the ones that aren't didn't have a good work ethic to begin with (of the people I know). Companies always can the ****** employees first. In fact I've turned down 4 Full Time Captaining positions this year that all paid very well, for good owners, on good boats, with a good program. All I needed to get the job was say yes.
I'm glad things are going well for you, and I'm proud of your work ethic. I'm doing quite well also, and got there by the sweat of my brow and an entrepreneurial mindset. Unfortunately there are major demonstrations going on right this minute around the country and around the world pointing out that the opportunities we had or were able to make for ourselves just don't exist today. I grew up aspiring to be middle class. There is no more middle class, and there's only so much room at the top. The rest is the 99%.
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Old 11-17-2011, 03:48 PM   #71 (permalink)
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NYCAP123 wrote:

Please git a hold of yer britches thare NYCAP123...?! The USA apparently spends more today in real terms (not just as a % of GDP) on military spending and self-defense than all the other 193 member states recognised as members of the UN combined. Think about that. Then consider and perhaps comment on, who in fact trully are the global aggressors and/or peace-keepers...?!

And if all these other 193 EU member states spend so little, perhaps it's simply because they can't afford to (or just won't simply anymore) spend unaffordable sums to support their own corrupt military-industrial complexes like you have to in USA...?!

IMHO, the USA should "START" talks with China asap. With the intention of negotiating limits on the number of aircraft-carriers each of these 2 countries should be allowed to operate over the next 10-20 years. It's abundantly clearer today that the USN / USAF program to gradually replace existing combat aircraft with the JSF aircraft variants is comparable to throwing billions of dallars down the drain. When operating off a carrier for example, these new generation aircraft will have an operational range which is much less than the distance the carriers will have to remain offshore from say the Chinese mainland, protected by current generation Chinese anti-ship cruise and ballistic missiles...?! Forgive me for my sarcasm, but unavoidable.

It's perhaps high-time that the USA perhaps considered spending 50% of its' defense budget in programs which contributed to the immediate well-being of civilian populations, even in nations where "purported enemies and terrorists" usually rule. And finish with dealing with dictators (Ghaddafi springs to mind)...?

My 2 cents worth...
I am sure you have heard of the phrase "Balance of Power"?

Well as much as I actually DO agree with you on talks rather than missiles and aircraft carriers, It does NOT WORK unless both parties or all parties have equal win/loss balance.
If the US decided to go back to its early 20th Century policy of Isolationism, and left Europe, Australia, Asia etc. to care for itself then you on the Riviera would be working for a Chinese or more likely Russian (under Putin or someone similar), much of Europe would either be Muslim or Russian ruled, Australia would be speaking Chinese as would parts of Indonesia and Japan would be in deep trouble. As for Aggressors, you like to point at the US a lot, sometimes rightly so, but mostly it's either pre-emptive or necessary.
Do you really believe Europe is a peaceful continent? Think back to the Balkans, Sarajevo, Ethnic cleansing etc. Then Russia invading Georgia!…all done in the last few years.
Airship I am no US sycophant, but I am sure of this, take the US out of the picture and you and millions of others would AGAIN be just surviving & doing as you are told!
Just my 2 c worth
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Old 11-17-2011, 08:47 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Man, you guys really need to watch the Search Results for "zeitgeistmovies.com" and do some research on the BIG picture.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:08 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Are you the producer or just the promoter of that? That's the 6th time you've tried to sell us that site. We heard you the first 5. Each of us have our sources that we know and trust for information. I'm sure there are those who believe Bill O'Riley speaks straight from God. I'm sure there are those who say Chris Mathews does. I'll decide what propoganda I view when and if I decide. Please don't try to sell it.
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Old 11-17-2011, 09:51 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I am an activist. I don't just sit around and watch the news and sit around the coffee table BSN. And I gave up on main stream media long ago which does include FOX (though they try to deny thier part of it). Every one on this thread has been selling thier personal ideals (which is good), but especially you. I haven't been out to offend you with my preaching any more than I'm sure you have with yours.
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Old 11-17-2011, 10:13 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Aren't we all forced to be today. Tell me your ideas and opinions. Tell me the news. Tell me of something relevant that you think we'd benefit to see. 6Xs? Don't sell me anything. I don't trust the lefts propaganda machine any more than I do the right's. My feeling is that the first thing you give up when you become a politician is your honesty, followed closely by your compassion.
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