The Design Process...

jmr · 12-10-2006, 02:57 AM

Lars,

I like your styling on this beautifull boat.

Thumbs up!

More pictures maybe?

Jos

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMG

Just another picture, the guys will work all night to get her ready...

coismov · 03-05-2007, 02:31 AM

Lars,
I was wondering what computer program you use for your renderings. Also, it seems to me that you begin immediately on the computer without any hand-drawn renderings. Am I correct to assume this?

Cheers,
Vance

AMG · 03-05-2007, 05:30 PM

Hi Vance,

I am using Freehand 7 in a Mac with Classic mode. I also have Freehand MX for OSX, but there are so many bugs and a zero support from Adobe, so I can not waste my time on using it...

These are vector programs for illustrations. Perhaps Adobe Illustrator can do the job as well, but with much more work to get the same result.

You are right, I just play with lines in the computer until it starts to look right and then I try to make it as a design and illustration at the same time. Using grids to get all measurements right, it can later be translated to CAD/CAM programs with not too much work.

Here are the preliminary lines for the next model in our range, a 29-footer.

/Lars

coismov · 03-05-2007, 10:41 PM

Thanks Lars!
One issue, however, that I have heard again and again, is many customers are discontent with the "coldness" of many yacht desgins. Many people have attributed this to the reliance on computer programs for yacht design. I have even discussed this with Carlo Nuvolari. He relayed to me his belief that for a vessle to truly be beautiful, a designer must start with a pencil and paper and only once the lines have been established can he move to the computer. What are your thoughts?

KCook · 03-06-2007, 01:25 AM

Very interesting to see the offset cabin! Are there many other builders in Europe doing this?

Kelly Cook

AMG · 03-06-2007, 01:47 AM

I agree, since historically 99% of the 3D computer designs are made by non-designers. The real designer is drawing by hand OR in a drawing program and later have an engineer/Naval Architect redraw it in a CAD/CAM program. This is where you can get this cold computer influence since the 3D programs are not so adapted to boat design. You often see it in the bow lines.

When you work in a drawing program there are no such limitations and the result is rather like an old school hand drawn design and the translation into CAD/CAM is within a mm of accuracy, where a hand made draft is just a guideline for the engineer/NA and the styling often comes out more cold or stiff.

I think I have found my best design tool in this 2D program and after 20 years of use, it is exactly like using a pencil for me. With the advantage of being more flexible, I can move every line or partition like it was in clay and don´t have to start all over or erase the paper drawings. To put ten different shapes on the screen is a matter of minutes instead of hours or days.

There will hopefully be more inituitive 3D-programs where designers can work in the same way, some say they already exists, but again, from the results I see, there are certain limitations that is making the designs more "cold" and also looking the same as others without personal touch.

When you work in 2D, the limitations are only in the designer, not the program. It may change with new generations of designers and programs...

AMG · 03-06-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCook

Very interesting to see the offset cabin! Are there many other builders in Europe doing this?

Kelly Cook

You don´see it often. I made it on a one-off design twenty years ago and then again five years ago before I made this design just over a year ago. Today I have seen it on a couple of other Swedish production boats...

I think it will remain a mainly Scandinavian feature since we anchor from the stern and walk over the bow.

This particular design is not about making the most beautiful boat in the world, but to have it fit into the design theme of our other boats and with this practical walkway for kids and dogs and us elderly to enter the boat...

brian eiland · 03-06-2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coismov

Thanks Lars!
One issue, however, that I have heard again and again, is many customers are discontent with the "coldness" of many yacht desgins. Many people have attributed this to the reliance on computer programs for yacht design. I have even discussed this with Carlo Nuvolari. He relayed to me his belief that for a vessle to truly be beautiful, a designer must start with a pencil and paper and only once the lines have been established can he move to the computer. What are your thoughts?

Along these same lines (no pun intended), I once wrote a reply to a magazine about an article on Ray Hunt designs:

Subject: Soundings Article by Ted Danforth, Jr.
Dear Ted,

Just finished reading your article about Ray Hunt in the June issue of Soundings, I wanted to write and let you know how much I truly enjoyed the article.

You captured not only the factual history, but more importantly, some of the essence of being involved with yachts and yacht design itself….. "the measure of total understanding of the nature of a boat."

And most importantly, you included the oft forgotten element, the sheer line. What a terribly important factor! Romantically stated, but oh so true, "it is simply her sheer … sheer beauty that is. She enters the harbor like a beautiful woman entering a room. Her sheer is the line we try to get right when we doodle boats." So many of today’s boats lack this beauty, and correspondingly, some of the essence of yesteryear’s yachting.

Your article brought some of that feeling back to me…some of that feeling that first inspired me to want to learn of sailing yachts and their design ….that had me putting together a scrapbook of designs, both good and poor, for future reference.

Now it so happens that I got quite heavily involved with multihull craft because here is where free thought and innovation abounded, and here it is even tougher to create a pretty sheer line.....

The point I wish to make is that it does seem very tough for the computer drawn lines to make a pretty sheer or bow flair line. Certainly Lars has shown this not to be. His designs are very pretty.

His method and choice of software are interesting to those of use who do not yet use a computer for design, and are looking through the huge selection of boat design software to try to make some decision on which one to buy and spend time learning?? I for one get lost here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMG

I think I have found my best design tool in this 2D program and after 20 years of use, it is exactly like using a pencil for me. With the advantage of being more flexible, I can move every line or partition like it was in clay and don´t have to start all over or erase the paper drawings. To put ten different shapes on the screen is a matter of minutes instead of hours or days.

I assume its this 'comfort factor' that you have with this older software that keeps you using it.
1) Do you feel that a new comer would have a relately easy time learning this software compared to some of the newer programs?
2) Have you found a newer program you like?

I believe you have an inherent 'artistic' ability that goes beyond the 'yacht design' ability, and most probably this is something that should be considered by many yacht design firms....they should reach out to the 'artistic' community. On the other hand I tried this recently with an art school graduate who expressed a great interest in yacht design. I was not impressed with his abilities...too many straight lines. (probably drawn by computer)

KCook · 03-06-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

practical walkway for kids and dogs and us elderly to enter the boat...

As I suspected. That this would allow an extra wide walkway on a design that is otherwise modest in beam. Here in the US the walkways around the cockpit structure to the bow have become entirely cosmetic! Very narrow, just a few inches. And in at least one popular cruiser I have seen the railing ran up the middle of the walkway, instead of the outer edge. Thus completely impossible to use!!! But still had the classic look, railing and all, from a side profile.

BTW, nice photo from your boat show!

Kelly

Angelus · 03-29-2007, 06:39 AM

I have to agree with 99.9% of Lars commets over the period this thread was started... There are a few 3D software packages available for all aspects of 3D design.. I was aske a couple of months ago to produce a lineplan and mods for a YES/!! 283mtr ship.. I asked would you like a 3D model.. There was a look of astonishment.. So I did the whole project in a model then transfered it from Microstation to Autocad so the 2D guy could use it.. I dont like Auto cad but this way worked quitwe well.. However ,,if there are any Microstation users here reading.. tell me why u cant cut thru a parametric of curved solid anymore.. if you look at a jpeg from a model I built some years ago Under the oceanco/Alfa IV thred , there you can clearly see I cut thru the transom for the freeing port. spurling pipe and more so the passerelle I designed for the yacht.. Now I cant do this with Triforma..Why???

For the most part, If I understood lars correctly, I'm not really into hulls and calcs to do with.. Give me something an owner want to do, something no other yacht has.. I'll design it. Toys, passerelles liferaft launchers..(Lady Christine) I think Lars you love your work as much as I do!

AMG · 03-29-2007, 06:56 AM

Hi Angelus,

Yesterday I got a confirmation of the 2D - 3D issue. I am designing a hull in 2D right now and wanted it extended by the guy who is doing the 3D model in Rhino for CNC use. He said that he had no time to do this until after mid april, but if I just wanted the whole hull scaled a bit, he could do it right now.

For me to do it in 2D by selecting each line separately will take 10 seconds and if I take all of them at one go, it is done in less than 1 second.

No wonder I will remain a 2D designer...

/Lars

Angelus · 03-29-2007, 07:21 AM

Hi Again.. I assume that the extention you need at at full beam where the long lines will remain the same distance from centre and base line... If you can do the job in 2D in 10 secs then I dont think it will fwd of full beam. But,, even in the model it should take only 10 secs anyway. especially in Rhino.. Nice package but I think they fall back a bit as most companies I know were using it as a pilot, eventually went for unigrafix or something..I've been modelling so long I find it hard to think in 2D anymore. I personally can work 20 times faster if I model it... Dont get me wrong!!! before Oceanco I was full on 2D and fast..

I just finished A 3D model of the whole topside supports and upperdeck for an FPSO. Now thats gone I have to do the whole Fire and Safety plan for the ship.. ITS BORING ME SENCELESS!!!!

That why I have the time to post since yesterday./.I attached the ass end of a 3D model. model is 206 mtrs.

Tell your 3D guy to pull his finger out.. You can if you like mail me the model and i'll extend it for you free of charge!!

Jorge Lang · 03-29-2007, 07:38 AM

Lars,

Let me know what engines you would choose for these fine designs. I'll post what the exhaust system would look like.

AMG · 03-29-2007, 07:45 AM

Thanks Angelus, but my guy wouldn´t be happy to hear this...

As an illustration to what I mean, I took an old design and stretched the entire boat 1,5 feet. It is just behind the tanks and all lines followed as you can see if you compare to the original above. A one second job.

AMG · 03-29-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorge Lang

Lars,

Let me know what engines you would choose for these fine designs. I'll post what the exhaust system would look like.

Hi Jorge,

We are only building with VP Aquamatic today, where all exhausts are going through the drives. But we had one client on our small boats with a V8 petrol that recently wanted a silent choice setup through the transom...

But I prefer factory installations and that our boats are silent as well...