[AMG]

Originally Posted by MKM

1. no. I did all in 3D. If you can not read good, consult an oculist. Please do not misrepresent.
The difference was just 2 different 3D Modelling softwares, Rhino & Catia, both are CAD or CAS.
2. yes, I know many.

1. The always so polite MKM. Next time - think before you type.

2. Can you name anyone?

Originally Posted by AMG

1. The always so polite MKM. Next time - think before you type.

2. Can you name anyone?

1. For sure it was a good response from your no polite attitude first, provocating and trolling. But if you want to threat with your moderating powers, as you did now, just confirm that.

2. Yes, but i will not lose my time with you.

[K1W1]

Originally Posted by MKM

For example the stearman seat was made from nothing in a simple design in rhinocerus 3d, then I took it, converted in Catia and from an empty model I did all again in a shape model for tooling in GFC in another 3D CAD, doing the whole design again, but in precise way, seeing for example draft of tooling and cosiderations for production. The rhino design from the girl, my ex-colleague, was not precise,

Hi,

MKM - Maybe it is you who needs to have the eyes tested.

What you wrote gives anyone reading it the impression the design which you finished off in Catia was made by an ex colleague in Rhino 3d originally.

[Kajan]

Before we lose sight of the subject, “Yacht Design or graphic art”. I would like to think that all great boats, yachts and ships out there started out as an idea in some ones head, Naval architect or not, long before the building aspect and various regulations came in to mind. To visualize the idea and make it available to others it might have started out as simple doodles with whatever means available, napkin or here at the YF in 2D/3D.

Since not all of us are NA’s I believe the various concepts should be looked upon and judged based on that same fact.

...or to sum it all up, I guess you could say that if a design concept on a napkin becomes a reality, it’s a work done by a designer but until then it’s merely some doodles done by a stylist

[Innomare]

For me, it starts with pencil and (lots of) paper. From there, it goes straight to 3D on computer. Unless there's a specific need, I skip the 2D on computer. It's only something which comes much later when 3D is getting defined and 2D drawings or renderings are derived from that for visualisation.

But I can't imagine starting without a sketchpad, napkin, or whatever else is handy (paper with mm-lines is useful too).

Anyone who's done this knows that you can end up with pretty strange 3D-curves when starting from what looks like perfectly normal top and side views. That's why I prefer to work in 3D - the thickness of the pencil lines in the first phase leaves enough room for adjustments (no false sense of exactness).

Bruno

[Telemachus]

Speaking as the village idiot here, is there a schism in the design community between these two approaches?

As a tangent to this topic, have any of you gentlemen had to deal with a client who thought he knew what he was doing and in the process of offering his suggestions, came up with something totally impractical if not impossible to execute? Is the impractical suggestion usually rooted in not understanding design or is it the product of vanity?

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by Kajan

...or to sum it all up, I guess you could say that if a design concept on a napkin becomes a reality, it’s a work done by a designer but until then it’s merely some doodles done by a stylist

Yeah, that works. The napkin doodle is a conceptual exercise in this context.

If the concept is to become reality it must pass through a design stage.

Another way to look at it is that da Vinci conceived a lot of of interesting machines then designed and produced models to see if they would work. He did not design Lisa Gherardini.

[AMG]

Originally Posted by Meidich_Hoertz

Speaking as the village idiot here, is there a schism in the design community between these two approaches?

As a tangent to this topic, have any of you gentlemen had to deal with a client who thought he knew what he was doing and in the process of offering his suggestions, came up with something totally impractical if not impossible to execute? Is the impractical suggestion usually rooted in not understanding design or is it the product of vanity?

No schism at all, we are just curious on how many designers work with 3D already from the first line or idea. It seems as most are still in the 2D world, be it on paper or in a computer, until the conceptual design is ready for 3D.

On impractical suggestions, they are more often from the designers than the clients I am afraid...

[Telemachus]

Originally Posted by AMG

No schism at all, we are just curious on how many designers work with 3D already from the first line or idea. It seems as most are still in the 2D world, be it on paper or in a computer, until the conceptual design is ready for 3D.

On impractical suggestions, they are more often from the designers than the clients I am afraid...

Pardon me if I'm being too epistemological, but do these two approaches result in profound differences in execution? Obviously, I've never designed a yacht or anything anywhere near as complex as one, but it would seem to me that the two approaches have different skill thresholds and so therefore conceiving, changing and executing might vary, given the medium.

[AMG]

Originally Posted by Meidich_Hoertz

Pardon me if I'm being too epistemological, but do these two approaches result in profound differences in execution? Obviously, I've never designed a yacht or anything anywhere near as complex as one, but it would seem to me that the two approaches have different skill thresholds and so therefore conceiving, changing and executing might vary, given the medium.

If you are a yacht designer, you can use whatever you like to get to the same result. In the old days, you were drawing with a pencil and finalized with ink. This was fine with building wooden boats, where you could make a new drawing for each boat and owner.

These old drawings can of course be translated into 3D today as all relevant information is there.

Working in a 2D program as I do, is something in between, with the biggest advantage that I can make changes in seconds instead of hours or days.

In the past I was trying to work in 3D from scratch, but it was too time consuming for me and therefore also limiting. But perhaps the Nintendo generation find it as easy as with 2D..?

[FISHTIGUA]

Up until the 1960's, when computers started to be used in shipbuilding, half-hull models were often made. It was possible to take dimensions and measurements from the model and transfer them into blueprint drawings for construction. If it looked right, generally it was right.

These 3D models could give beautiful compound curves and lines that are sometimes sadly missing in computer generated designs.

[Telemachus]

AMG & Fishtigua,

Thank you both for your generous answers.

AMG: I'm too old to be of the Nintendo generation; however, although I never got into video games, I think I'd be a member of the Atari 2600 generation. My classmates were always talking about it.

[84far]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Is it time to exhume the thread about the difference between design and graphic arts?

Just because someone can waltz a mouse around a computer graphics program doesn't mean he is a designer. A stylist perhaps, but when the endpoint of that person's knowledge and skill is a photorealistic representation of an idea that may or may not be possible to produce or even approach its intended purpose in reality, assuming the title of "designer" is a bit much.

I would have to say if something is being created on the computer, that's one designing something, yes....? Whether it's a that smily face off to the side of the screen, or the latest superyacht.
I think if a person designs/creates something that fails (depending on the size of failure or fu$kup)... I would call that trial and error. But that also depends on that persons knowledge or lack of in that particular field. But it goes both ways - including nav arch designing pleasure boats that look like ferries, and are in a desperate need of a top deck .

To answer the other question, I like to start with a sketch, or series of sketches, get to where I need it to be. Translate the sketch over to the drawing board and scale the yacht up, ink the drawing. That can then be used as the perspective for the client/builder. Then translate that drawing over to the CAD program (Rhino 4.0). I then work with the 4 windows - top, side, front, 3D views. This irons out any bad angles, shapes, or functions of an object, that may or may not work. And would have to say a pen and paper are so important in the office when one needs to tanslate a quick sketch to get his or her point of view across. Cheers

Far

[mwagner1]

What a fascinating thread.....I would ask this...when a potential customer with gazillions of Euros comes to you wanting to build his 95m baby, do you whip out your laptop loaded with all of the latest greatest programs and magically produce a 2D and 3D masterpiece, thrilling the owner and then race off to the yard?

I offer this scenario....the customer comes in with a thumb drive loaded with several gigabytes of images of yachts he/she like...yachts from Lurssen, B&V, Nobiskrug, Oceanco, Fincantieri, etc etc etc....does the computer/programming start right away??? I bet at this stage people like Oeino, Nuvolari & Lenard, Disdale, Bannenberg, Freivokh, etc start with something rather primitive....a pen/pencil and sheets of paper with ever developing sketches and ideas based on the future owner's likes/dislikes. As the ideas solidify, I bet then the 2D drawings start to flow....when a design is liked/approved, I bet the 3D renderings come along...right???

Someday I hope to build my dream baby and I have loads of images saved...images that range from traditional renderings (whether they are from artists/dreamers to actual naval architects) to the fantastic and I am sure that whichever naval engineer I use, we will start with said images....and a pen/pencil and pad of paper....

Cheers,

[84far]

That's a very interesting comment mwagner1, I actually find a lot of Nav Archs are to reliant on the computer programs because they simply can't visualize how the design will look in 3 dimensions.

If I had zillions of dollars I would start off with an exterior designer (unless a Nav Arch has a good track record), get to a healthy stage of liking the design, approach the builders with either in-house Nav Archs, or contract one out, then approach an interior designer.

I read a great article about Philippe Briand the other day, he was at a restaurant and started brain storming on a napkin (sketching), I think the boat was Vertigo... he ran out of room on the napkin and started sketching on the table cloth, before he knew it he had pretty much filled the table cloth with sketches of the boat...

And yes, he had to pay for the table cloth as well

Far