[Arniev]

Carl,
Do you have any pictures of Espen at FLIBS?
It would be nice to connect a face to the yachts he designed.
A

[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by Arniev

I've always thought that true Designer Yachts are unique, one-off designs, intelligently combining the owner's specifications and eccentricities, and interpreted by the designer into a visually-pleasing, safe and seaworthy vessel.

Lars,

In reading this thread, I'm not sure I fully understand the meaning of a "Designer Yacht". My perception would be the same as Arnie's above. If I understand you correctly, you're saying a Designer Yacht should stand the test of time? If this is true, I would like to raise Bannenberg’s work which you cited in an earlier post...

Without question, his designs were fresh and bold, ushering in a new era in yacht design. I know it goes against popular opinion among yacht enthusiasts, but among the less educated, I’ve heard comments ranging from dated to dreadful. I think if history teaches us anything, is that we must must keep an eye on the future. I think you have proven this with your own designs. Although you designed some of them many years ago, they still remain the most modern and timeless designs to date.

The yachts being built today will be seen in many ports over the years to come. This can be a direct reflection on the future demand of a builder. All too often, a builder is credited with a design, not the actually designer. Here in lies a problem...

Often, a yard will choose a design because of an established relationship with a designer. Because they will be working together closely for years on just one project, this often leads to another project, as each party becomes more familiar with each other; their thought processes, and protocols. All of this makes sense in many ways, both from a fiscal and time element, however this also makes it difficult for a new designer to make in-roads.

I believe in many cases (not just limited to yacht building), there exists a pop-mentality of using a name that is familiar, whether it be a product, service or in this case... a designer. Do they chance the risk of new talent, or travel the path of past performance. Builders must be conservative and prudent by nature. They are risking millions of dollars and 1000’s of man-hours on one design, let alone multiple projects. Choosing a designer they can “work with” is imperative, but this may also limit the builder’s design options.

Not surprisingly, there is a certain amount of “emulation” that takes place, where subtle features and accents previously penned by other designers… magically make their way into a more established designer’s repertoire. Then, having an existing communication with certain yards, they are able to further their acceptance. Again, this makes opening channels for a new designer even more challenging. But… this could be said of any industry.

[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by Arniev

Carl, Do you have any pictures of Espen at FLIBS?
It would be nice to connect a face to the yachts he designed.

Arnie,

Sorry, I didn't take any pics at the Beach Bash, but on page 81 of the September issue of Y.I., there's an interview with Espen and a picture or two.

[AMG]

Originally Posted by YachtForums

Lars,

In reading this thread, I'm not sure I fully understand the meaning of a "Designer Yacht". My perception would be the same as Arnie's above. If I understand you correctly, you're saying a Designer Yacht should stand the test of time? If this is true, I would like to raise Bannenberg’s work which you cited in an earlier post...

Trying to answer this in a few words. My initial post in this thread was saying almost the contrary, good Yacht Designs like Hargrave and de Voogt will stand the test of time, while Designer Yachts are on the boundaries between success and failure.

Bannenbergs designs were often considered nightmares to build and the same to maintain. Some are also a little over the top or outdated today, but many are still really attractive and all of them were pushing the envelope when new. This is the nature of a Designer Yacht, new yacht concepts with unexpected lines and details.

If you look at the Oceanfast Parts VI you will find that almost all yachts today have borrowed details she had twenty years ago.

The lack of evolution today is probably partly from what you are saying, shipyards are sticking with the designers they think will sell and the brokers are supporting this thinking, as it makes life easier. The brokers are very influential since both shipyards and buyers need their support, even if it has often more to do with money than knowledge.

But as I also said initially, when you now have built a number of yachts far too big to get into the ports, the next evolution will probably be to build yachts that are more personal, better designed and with even higher quality.

As more and more people are interested in having a yacht, I am sure there will be two main directions. One for more mainstream semicustom yachts with short delivery time and one for smarter one-off yachts, like Wally and who is next...?

/Lars

[YachtForums]

Ahhh... now I understand. Thank you for clarifying. This is a good topic. Let's move it into the General Discussion for awhile. Maybe others will chime-in.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AMG

The lack of evolution today is probably partly from what you are saying, shipyards are sticking with the designers they think will sell and the brokers are supporting this thinking, as it makes life easier.

I think the general up-turn of the yacht market would be another factor leading to lack of evolution. Twenty years ago super-yachts were for the very elite, but over time they are becoming more and more accesible (relatively speaking of course) as more people get larger fortunes and "want it now". It's far easier to quickly sell something "safe" than it is to sell something revolutionary. I mean, look at the M-140 and Wallypower... both have been on the market for how long already? On the other hand, Trinity signed five contracts at FLIBS alone.

[AMG]

You are right, and since more yachts than we know are built on spec, they go for less risky projects. So we must admire Wally for building the 118' which has all the warning signs, extreme looks, extreme power/speed and extremely expensive for the size. Maybe too extreme? Future will tell but she has changed the perception of a fast yacht from the usual Pershing or Sunseeker themes.

In the past we have however seen spec built Designer Yachts such as Oceana from Bannenberg/Oceanfast. The first one picked up in Brunei, then the more beautiful that became known as Kremlin Princess and Little Sis.

I hope some yards will use this route so not all yachts look like clones...

[KCook]

The brokers are very influential since both shipyards and buyers need their support

EH?? I thought brokers were for used yachts. And new build customers who want to use them as project managers? But still optional for a new build customer. Do you mean that it's more difficult for a new build customer to get access to project managers or builders without using a broker?

Kelly

[AMG]

Yacht brokers rules, if you ask them.

Of course they want to be part of any deal and when a shipyard is building on spec, they turn to the brokers. As well as many yacht owners who want to sell and build new yachts.

Project managers you can get without a broker involved, it can be a professional such or a yacht captain you have or is hiring.

[KCook]

Thanks Lars. I didn't know the "spec" builds were a significant number. A broker certainly makes sense for that game.

Kelly

[AMG]

A little off topic again, but when I say spec yachts, it covers several situations.

One is when a shipyard is new or expanding and want to show the world what they can achieve. Another is when the order books look empty for a certain period and the shipyard know it will need the workforce soon again so they build a spec boat to maintain momentum. A third is when an order is cancelled halfway, where it is better to continue the build on spec than stop. It can also happen as with Utopia, the owner dies and the relatives wants the project to be finished and then sold.

Some shipyards also like to build on speculation since they can go on without an owner interfering with new ideas, and later discussions on the added costs and broken timeframes.

But there are also a number of yachts built where someone, like Staluppi, is running it as a spec project. He is obviously doing it for the fun of developing fast and special yachts and later sell one or more of them.

Other just go in and finance a handful of yachts and is getting their own built for a share of the profit. And finally, some are joint ventures with brokers and financiers.

I also know where a buyer change his mind, often wants a bigger yacht, before taking delivery and is selling the project underway.

We don´t know all reasons why so many new or almost new yachts come up for sale, but I like to think that the owner is realizing the design was not really what he wanted. I am often right when I see a new (less good) design being built, that it will be up for sale sooner rather than later...

To end this long reply, this is also why semi-custom (or semi-spec) yachts are becoming more popular. The price is lower and the lead times are much shorter which especially first time buyers appreciate. Many are happy if they can just make the decoration to their own taste and get the new yacht within months instead of years.

[KCook]

Thanks Lars

[sailronin]

Spec boats seem to be on the rise with even Feadship now offering a line of semi-custom yachts.
There is a lot to be said for this trend from the new owners perspective. Shorter lead time, they don't have to be involved with the multitude of decisions (they will input into interior decoration and soft goods but not be bothered with actual design details), the price will be lower than a comparible custom yacht.
On the other hand it does reduce the number of designers getting their work built, and the resale value may be reduced as there is always another new yacht of similar design in the works. Buyers are given more of a choice, purchase a two year old yacht or for a fraction more money get the next one off the line with only a short wait.

Dave

[AMG]

Originally Posted by sailronin

...On the other hand it does reduce the number of designers getting their work built...
Dave

Since there are more yachts built than ever, I hope the number of real one-offs will remain the same at least. And over time it must increase, as I think the majority of the spec boats and semi-customs are pretty boring...

Good design will always be in demand or create demand, the problem is more for the buyer to find the right designers who can create a Designer Yacht or at least a good looking and sensible design.

[Arniev]

Originally Posted by AMG

Since there are more yachts built than ever, I hope the number of real one-offs will remain the same at least. And over time it must increase, as I think the majority of the spec boats and semi-customs are pretty boring...

Good design will always be in demand or create demand, the problem is more for the buyer to find the right designers who can create a Designer Yacht or at least a good looking and sensible design.

As long as there are owners who want to build "the yacht of their dreams", and designers willing to "think outside the box" and turn those dreams into reality, then we'll be seeing a lot of real one-offs for a long time.