3D parametric Yacht Design

tartanski · 11-05-2004, 08:01 AM

3D modelling has often been critisied as too time consuming and too difficult to make modifications. New tools and new methodologies are changing this.

AMG · 11-05-2004, 08:17 AM

I hope things are going the way you are describing, but at present I have not seen a 3D tool where you can alter in 3D by one move?

I also think it will be easier when I can afford the new 30" Apple flatscreen...

tartanski · 11-05-2004, 08:29 AM

I hope things are going this way too, i dont think 3D can ever be as easy as 2D to modify but the approach of 3D is to provide a more rich information source, this means more work... but it should also mean more result, be it in better visualisation of use of space, better ergonomic design better surfaces for manufacturing etc etc.

The model on the image i have posted is almost as easy as the 2D vector model to edit, I simply select a 3D curve, then a control point and i move it in 3D space. (this can be done in a 2D view of the 3D model for ease of use) the effect to all other curves is automatically propogated and under your control.

I am busy at work at the moment but will post under this thread some ideas of how this approach is being used by forward thinking yacht designers.

AMG · 11-05-2004, 09:03 AM

I think I will continue to work in 2D anyway. I was introduced to Silicon Graphics Open GL and found that the learning curve was like for a shrink being a brain surgeon...

In my experience, most serious clients still want to see 2D drawings as they are used to. I can imagine that new buyers, unfamiliar to yachts might be impressed by 3D renderings which of course is easier to understand.

But for me, the major benefit of 3D is in the manufacturing process, where you can get robots doing the job in detail down to the antislip pattern on deck...

And luckily, there are good guys out there that can help with this job

/Lars

TRY · 11-06-2004, 05:44 AM

Anyone who would need or like 3D renderings, static, dynamic or fly-through can call upon me.
All I need is 2D drawings, it takes about 3-5 days to get the 3D delivered on your screen.

jmr · 05-26-2005, 05:01 AM

I used 3D CAD, Unigraphics NX with Studio SHape modul, to model a ship or yacht from 2D sketch. The good thing is, everything is solid so further analyis is possible within this program. Surfacing is okay and also used in the automotive industry.

Jos

tartanski · 05-26-2005, 07:45 AM

Sorry in advance that this is not really about yachts,

but you may all be interested to know that this approach is being used in a large design office. It is not really the creative part of design , but more the conceptual engineering part.

here is an image of a fully parametric panamax (note folding bow) cruise ship, they cna easily add extra decks or lenght by editing some parameters.

Garry Hartshorn · 06-14-2005, 06:31 AM

Early in my profesional career as a yacht engineer I could see the benifit of 3D modeling in engineering spaces, mostly for placement of equipment, piping and wiring runs ect.............but found that the programs that where avaliable then were difficult to master. Since then there are many great programs on the market that I have played with and I believe that ultimately to build an entire yacht digitaly is the way to go, however I do agree that most owners/people find it easier to follow if a system or layout is presented in a 2D format. So there will allways be a need for 2D drawings.

Garry

jmr · 06-14-2005, 06:42 AM

In my opinion, 2D sketch are more impressive than week of computational renderins in 3D! A very good 2D renderings are more personal than machine 3D renderings. I agree with Lars and you, that owner want to see 2D drawings.

3D is good, if it will be used for very large projects that need collaboration between companies and divisions in the company. Building complex engineering environment in large ships can be very difficult, if you do that in 2D.

rlackey · 06-14-2005, 07:15 AM

This is an interesting discussion. As someone who is entirely self taught, and has never been told of a correct or accepted way of doing things before I jumped in at the deep end, logic dictated to me to start modelling in 3D as early in the design process as possible. I agree that 2D drawings are very necessary, but I find it easier to generate accurate 2D drawings from a 3D model than the other way around.

I also find the ability to calculate static and dynamic stability, centre of gravity, centre of bouyancy, wetted surface area, drag coefficients, hydrodynamics and so forth on the fly to a very high accuracy from a 3D model to be incredibly useful in making small or even major changes to a hull design quickly, then observing the changes in data to get it closer and closer to meeting the required design criteria.

These changes from revision to revision can affect almost every aspect of the hull shape, which I would argue would be incredibly time consuming in 2D, then having to make a whole lot manual calculations to determine if it is closer or further from meeting the required specifications, only to model in 3D when it's all done.

This is to say nothing of the added tools available when modelling in 3D to achieve perfectly fair curves and contours.

Perhaps I am not understanding the comparison going on here though. I guess it also comes down to what you are used to.

Rich

Garry Hartshorn · 06-14-2005, 07:31 AM

I do agree a hand drawn sketch is a work of art that can not be compaired to a digital rendering when it comes to the essence of design and it is a skill that sadly seems to be overlooked. However when it comes down to construction details I believe that it is quicker easier and more accurate to draw in 3D. I have found that I can draw a 35m hull and deck all frames, bulkheads and major structural members in less that a day in 3D on paper this would take me at least a week not to mention the basic hydrostatic, resistance and stability calculations that come with many of the packages. So while I often doodle ideas on paper my real designing is done in 3D.

AMG · 06-14-2005, 12:16 PM

Yes, this is an interesting topic!

In general I think 3D is more for engineering and 2D is for conceptual design. However if you learn to use 3D all the way, it is probably a saving in the end but I doubt it will be made quicker?

It might also be different tools for 3D renderings and 3D cutting which at least what I am experiencing now will add costs.

As an example, my 2D line drawings with all frames on a 40-foot hull is estimated to take more than 80 hours to translate to a surface for CNC-cutting.

This is much more than a day...

rlackey · 06-14-2005, 01:44 PM

I guess it really does depend on your style of working, your logical thought process through a design and your unique method of taking a design from concept to manufacture. I would never criticise anyone for drawing out thier entire yacht by hand with pencil and paper, it is a skill that will soon probably be lost to the digital age.

I think also we may be talking about 3D modelling to two different standards for two different purposes?

I would imagine a 3D model for conceptualization or even just producing pretty renderings of the exterior does not need to be incredibly accurate, definitely to scale, but not perfect and could be quickly generated from 2D drawings. The type of 3D modelling I am talking about is literally building an exact digital model of the yacht, accurate to a fraction of a millimetre, including framing, all structural elements, literally everything, every nut, bolt, fixture and fitting, similar to the way Boeing modelled and designed it's 777 entirely in 3D, and as a result was able to manufacture to closer tolerances than ever before achieved.

Such a model takes far longer than just a few hours to produce, and is built piece by piece throughout the entire design process. The advantage is that such a model in theory renders tank testing somewhat obsolete as all this data can be generated to incredible accuracy directly from the 3D model. Every single component can be test fitted and adjusted or redesigned without ever cutting or building anything.

I found when building my actual model from the 3D model of my hull, I was quickly able to generate 2D section drawings and framing from the 3D model, and while not quite ready to be used to laser cut components from steel plate, when printed out on A3 paper on a laser printer they were far more accurate than I would have been able to draw by hand. I transfered the print-outs to thick cardstock, and the framing went together perfectly. I certainly can't imagine it would take long to make them ready for CNC work.

There are a lot of undeniable advantages to designing a yacht from the start entirely in 3D, this is just my humble opinion, yes, but if the Americas Cup teams, and many others design thier yachts in this way that says something to me about the validity of the technology and techniques.

I am convinced that it must end up saving time and money, and allows far superior results in the end product. However, I have no actual experience of this.

I am not a commercial or professional naval architect, and I have very little exposure to the industry at large but I always assumed that virtually every yacht was designed this way now. I am actually surprised to learn of design work still done by hand or in 2D. No offense is intended at all to those of you that do things differently, as I said, I think there is a place for both and in a lot of ways I think it is harder and takes more skill to produce quality 2D drawings by hand.... you actually have to think, the computer is not there to do that for you!

Rich

Codger · 06-14-2005, 01:46 PM

Just one customer's point of view.

I've purchased everything from specialised machine tools to houses over the past few years and full 3D made a significant difference in the ease of making changes and final decisions. 2D is nice and helped but being able to see everything in 3 dimensions with multiple viewing angles brought many things to light that would have been impossible to change or correct later on. All the designers I've met seem to be able to imagine quite accurately the 3 dimensional reality even from paper drawings. I am not so gifted.
If I were to be purchasing a custom vessel and the fact that my engineer is 6 foot 5" tall were not taken in to account during the design of the engine room and other areas that he needed access to.....

2D is art. 3D is real. I have a copy of the overall blueprint for a walking conveyor on my wall. It's beautiful to look at but nothing compared to the final piece. Bottom of this page, painted orange:
http://www.suncor.com/default.aspx?ID=9
After all these years I still marvel at how these pieces of paper became a magnificient machine.

AMG: The large LCD displays are very nice but I've found that using a 42" plasma placed proportionately further away is easier to use. Having a second, smaller display for the tools keeps the main workspace uncluttered. Perhaps it's just the applications that I use but it may be worth trying out for your purposes.

AMG · 06-14-2005, 04:27 PM

I think your 6 foot 5" engineer will fit into a 2D design as well, as it is what you put into the computer that comes out. If the designer should not have the ability to design the proper volumes in 2D, nothing helps...

On screens, I am not an expert at all, but the Plasmas I have connected to are just enlarging my present screen at the same resolution, where LCD:s gives a higher resolution. But I might have done something wrong or miss a software or a card to drive it.

What I have found best though, regardless of screen size, is a viewing distance of about two feet. To get a distance, I reduce the object. I am actually zooming in and out all the time... But thank you anyway, I´ll look into what is available.