[Marmot]

Originally Posted by AMG

Nobody is selling pictures. We are selling our services. If you want me to design a yacht like the one pictured we will make a contract where you will get the rights to build one boat or perhaps more if you are a boatbuilder.

How do you think designers pay their bills?

BjornS asked "... whether to publish images of new and original concept yacht designs (make public on the internet or in printed magazines) ... ."

This thread is based on a fear of those pictures being stolen and used without payment and the question is whether it is "safe" to post them.

What we see here and elsewhere are concept pictures, in most cases (I suspect nearly all) there is no underlying design work available to flesh out those renderings, the totality of the work is what is published. They are published in order to attract customers, they are bait. There is nothing wrong with that but I find the level of righteous indignation at the idea of having your bait stolen to be rather amusing.

Let's put this another way, of course you personally are an accomplished designer and have the resources to deliver a complete package from concept to sea trial but I suspect most of the internet stylists lack that capability. So, when I see a pretty picture drawn by one of those stylists, that is all he has and can offer. He doesn't have a service to sell and has no way of generating one. Is his drawing a design and any boat built to superficially resemble it a copyright infringement? I think not.

If all a stylist has to sell is a picture I think that picture is very much for sale. Which of course brings us back to the original question. How much is that picture worth and how can you protect it? If I don't want or need your services are you too proud to sell your picture?

This begs the bigger question; if you won't sell it, and can't produce a design to flesh it out or supervise the development of plans, what are you going to do if I take that picture to a designer and tell him to design a boat that looks like this? I didn't put my name on the picture, the stylist didn't produce a general arrangement or underwater shape, calculate the hydrodynamics or draw a set of deckplans. Even if he did, I didn't copy and deliver those to my designer, so what was stolen?

As a professional yacht designer, you must have a stream of clients calling or walking in every day with a picture of a boat they like. They say, "build me one that looks like this." Do you tell them you can't because the picture is stolen and you can only sell him your services, which in this case means he will pay you to keep sending him original concept drawings until he sees one he likes?

[AMG]

Marmot, if the originator of the "picture" have no idea how to make it a design, you still have to get an agreement before you proceed. You can not just grab it.

Since you are in this biz, you must know how small world this is, nobody would make a career by stealing designs.

[CODOG]

Originally Posted by Marmot

This begs the bigger question; if you won't sell it, and can't produce a design to flesh it out or supervise the development of plans, what are you going to do if I take that picture to a designer and tell him to design a boat that looks like this? I didn't put my name on the picture, the stylist didn't produce a general arrangement or underwater shape, calculate the hydrodynamics or draw a set of deckplans. Even if he did, I didn't copy and deliver those to my designer, so what was stolen?

You have answered your own question.
Why are you deliberately separating general arrangement, hull design and deck plans apart from the profile design ?

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by CODOG

You have answered your own question.
Why are you deliberately separating general arrangement, hull design and deck plans apart from the profile design ?

Because a profile drawing is only that, a drawing.

Whatever happened to those thousands of pages of law concerning this stuff? Surely the designers have references to what is best protected by copyright and what must be patented? I have tossed out a lot of reasons why I don't think one pretty picture by itself rates being called a design, I have repeatedly acknowledged the picture is protected by copyright but I have yet to get a reference to a law or court case which links a single drawing to a body of work that could be described as a yacht design someone could steal and build.

And, what about that client who walks in with a picture in hand? Do you look at it? How close do you come to "stealing" some other stylist's work? Where do designers stand in that case?

If you want protection you have to keep everything secret until it hits the ways. If you publish it as bait the fish will nibble on it. That's called fishing.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by CODOG

You have answered your own question.

Have I?

Are you saying that individual desginers or design shops don't look at the picture and tweak it just enough to satisfy their conscience and give the client what he wants?

Or do they just tell the client "Sorry, I can't look at the picture, but here look at my folio and let me know if there is something there you like. Oh, don't see anything to your taste, well, too bad, cheerio then."

I don't think so ...

[AMG]

Marmot, luckily you are not a designer, this is saving you a lot of trouble.

[CODOG]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Because a profile drawing is only that, a drawing.

In the context of the original thread direction, lets agree to disagree on this point. You are right in terms of a statement, that a profile drawing is just that, a drawing of a profile. But IMO you are wrong when you dismiss the potential value of a drawing of a profile in the context of the OP's initial question. I could say a profile design is just that, a design. Wording is similar, meaning is far different. It doesn't matter if its presented as a drawing, a rendering or a painting in oils...if the originator has designed it, that design belongs to him. A successful profile design is as much of an essential part of the overall design as any other design discipline. Profiles or 3-D renderings of the exterior styling are not a result of the design process, in actual fact they are very often the genesis, and at the very least a component of the final product that is given every bit as much thought if not more (as the skippers and engineers on here will agree) as the rest of the design.
Whether the originator is a household name or a talented beginner, the point I'm trying to make is the same. I've seen countless floating product sold on conceptual profile drawings and renderings alone, their potential value is real, if not always appreciated.

[Eric Sponberg]

I have read the entire thread with some amusement because all designers go through this process. Bjorn's original question relates to how do you find customers for your designs? It is a classic Catch-22 situation: You can't get customers unless you publish, and you can't publish unless you have customers. At least, that is the way it used to be--before internet. Back when I started in the late 1970s, magazines were our only outlet for publishing. In the early post-WWII period, published designs (without an actual boat to back them up) were common. But by the time I started, magazines by and large had decided to publish only those designs for boats which had actually been built. This was because there were so many new designers, offering some not so good stuff, that the magazines had to draw the line somewhere. As a result, I could not find customers unless I could publish, and I could not publish unless I had customers who had actually built one of my designs. Now, of course, we have the internet and we have our own websites and can publish whatever we want, so that part is a lot easier.

So as far as the question of publishing is concerned, my answer is, you have to publish. How is anyone going to know who you are unless you publish? Is it risky? Sure, but it is a necessary risk. And really, what is the chance that someone is going to steal your design--it's pretty small, because most other designers have their own agenda, their own ideas, their own designs--they don't need yours, they are competing with you! And if all you have is just one idea, you're in a sad way. Because a good designer will have LOTS of ideas. If this idea didn't work, didn't get customers, then go onto the next idea. Do the next boat. Keep doing another boat or another idea. Stay one or two steps ahead of your competition. That way, if someone does steal your earlier design, then so what, you have already advanced, matured, moved onto the next best thing. You are at the leading edge and your competition is only back there at the last good idea. Stay ahead of the pack.

So you publish, now how do you reach the customers you need to reach? People who buy large fancy yachts are older men who have money. Right away, that is a pretty rarified atmosphere. To be an older man with money, you have to have succeeded in business or inherited your wealth. And if you manage your wealth properly so that you can dispose of some of it in a yacht, you will do a lot of research on designs and designers, you will rely on other people's recommendations, and you will look for integrity and credibility in the designer. Those last things are the most difficult for a designer to acquire, and you don't get it by posting pretty pictures on a website.

Most designers get their best work by the recommendations of other people. It is who you know that counts, more so than what you know, really. I cannot over-emphasize this, so I will repeat it--who you know is more important than what you know. Most yacht projects go forward because someone knew someone else who knew this or that designer who once did a good job. Ask any major designer out there about their first major work, and you will most likely find a link that it came about by personal knowledge or recommendation of someone else. And a lot of it comes from just plain luck and being in the right place at the right time. Every designer I know has a good luck story--this or that boat design came about simply by good luck. To make that happen for yourself, you have to position yourself in the way of opportunities when they arise, and be prepared to seize then them when they appear. That is the meaning of luck.

The other part is integrity, and more important, credibility. Integrity comes from within you--how honest you are with yourself and your customers. Credibility is mostly outside of you--it comes from what other people say about you. Credibility is also entwined with how realistic your designs and work are. Can they be built? That is the whole point. This is where I have to agree with Marmot--you have to back up what you can do with the drawings and technical detail that are required to build the boat. On megayachts, of course, this is difficult because large yachts require a lot of work that is usually handled by a design and engineering team. Sometimes that team is within the shipyard, sometimes it is with another engineering firm, sometimes it is within your own design house. If you don't have connections to a shipyard or a naval architecture/engineering firm, it is going be very difficult to get customers.

Keep in mind here that I am talking about large yachts. Small yachts are another matter--a lone designer can handle small yacht design and detail by him or herself. Unfortunately, the market for small yachts is practically non-existent. Most potential customers don't have the money to afford a custom small design and the prices of production boats, both new and used, keeps that market pretty well satisfied without new custom designs.

If you are a young designer just starting out, you don't have any credibility. Why would some customer come to you for your designs when he can get practically the same thing from any other designer who has more experience than you? A customer generally comes to you because he has seen something close to what he wants in your work. But it is never exact. And face it, many designers actually produce the same sorts of designs over and over again, and a savy customer is going to take what he likes in the form of pictures and prints that he has collected to the designer that is going to give him the best packaged deal, and that includes credibility and track record. It is an extremely rare day indeed when a customer will commission an unknown designer to design a brand new boat conceived from a sketch or pretty picture. If he does, it is because there is someone else in the picture that the customer knows and trusts who recommends the designer at hand.

How do you get credibility? It just takes time--years. One well-known designer told me before I started out that it would take me 15 years to get credibility and steady-paying customers. Now, over 30 years later, I am still collecting credibility. And it did take nearly 15 years to get really steady paying work. So, you have to survive all that time. With the internet, that time span probably shortens because ideas and working relationships can happen so much faster via the internet. I won't hazard a guess as to how long it takes, but I will say it still takes some years.

And now, with the economy going south, we have seen here in Florida that megayachts are "going into hibernation." There is a Carlinism for you--we used to call it "Moth balls", now we call it "hibernation." People aren't using their yachts, crews are getting laid off, more and more megayachts are going up for sale but no one is buying, and owners are upside down on their yacht mortgages. I would not be surprized if we are seeing the beginning of the white elephants--large yachts that no one wants.

My advice: Do a good job at a reasonable price. Give more than you promised. Be honest with yourself and more importantly, your customers. Publish, both on your website and in the press if you can find suitable venues. And by that, I mean articles on the design and engineering of boats. Most magazines are hungry for technical detail, and will pay you to write articles. Articles are 10 times more believable than advertisements that you would otherwise have to pay for. Writing articles brings the money and credibility in, whereas adds pay money out. Diversify--many designers, myself included, have a customer or two NOT in the yacht business. I get significant business in other venues, such as flagpole/lightpole engineering and windmill blade design and engineering. I do a lot of repair specs and investigations on broken boats. I am an expert witness in legal cases. One summer as I was starting out, I drove a taxi for a summer. My first night driving I learned from my customers that the women of Newport, RI, are fat, ugly and cost $20 (actually, I found out later it was $25). All of these things bring in money to survive--raise my family, pay the bills, and eat food. Thankfully, I haven't had to drive a taxi in about 30 years, but I could if I had to. My wife, a novelist, and I are also tour guides at night in downtown St. Augustine, but that's another story....

Eric

[OutMyWindow]

Eric, good “reality check” post.
Attracting clientele with one’s artistic talents, and expecting to be part of a $50 Million build is no doubt a pipe dream of any young and independent designer.

The rules in getting contracts of sizeable magnitude are the same regardless if it’s a Yacht design or a custom Home/Building/Auto.
No amount of impressive drawings will get anybody to sign on the dotted line unless your part of a reputable established firm or have a portfolio of prior builds with a list of happy customers.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by CODOG

In the context of the original thread direction, lets agree to disagree on this point.

That's fine with me, I'm not a designer or a lawyer.

So far though, no one, least of all me, has said anything other than the pretty picture is protected by copyright.

No on has produced one of those "thousands of pages" of case law or judgements which awards a "yacht designer" a single cent for a claim of copyright infringement for building a boat based on a pretty picture publised in a magazine or on the net. That goes to the heart of this discussion.

If I were a designer I too would fight to the finish to protect my artwork but so far I haven't seen anything that says designing a boat based on a pretty picture found online or in print is illegal or has been proven in court to be a crime, civil or criminal. You guys are the designers, you must know what kind of protection you have and from whom and by whom or what. So far this thread has only confirmed everything I have written, that pretty pictures are protected by copyright. And that is the full extent so far. Somewhere in those thousands of pages must be an example that will stop me from taking one of the pretty pictures posted here to my favorite naval architect and saying "Here, I like this, build me one."

[AMG]

Marmot, if you want to read more, here are a few links:

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[K1W1]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Somewhere in those thousands of pages must be an example that will stop me from taking one of the pretty pictures posted here to my favorite naval architect and saying "Here, I like this, build me one."

Hi,

I wouldn't worry about searching the net for an example of what will stop you doing that, I would instead look in your letter box for your bank statement

[OutMyWindow]

Here’s an example of Intellectual property theft.
In this case it’s a photograph that I took that is being used “without permission” for commercial purposes.

http://www.thomasspirit.com/

[K1W1]

Hi,

Contact the Broker if you can, I do believe that all Merrill Stevens Brokers got the can earlier this year.


Barbara Tierney
BarbaraT at MerrillStevens.com
Merrill Stevens Yachts
1800 SE 10th Avenue
Suite 215
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33316

954-791-2600 - Office

[OutMyWindow]

Originally Posted by K1W1

Contact the Broker if you can, I do believe that all Merrill Stevens Brokers got the can earlier this year.

I did last year, but she chooses to show her ethical integrity by ignoring the obvious.