[Marmot]

"I'm all for training and certification, but when people point to "mandatory minimum" training or "mandatory minimum" certification in lieu of experience or hands-on training to determine sufficiency or proficiency or ability, it scares the living daylights out some of us - as it should you, as a professional. "

I believe if you read my posts in this thread and others you will find that I am among the most vocal of critics of the current yacht licensing system for just that reason. I am also a very strong supporter of formal training, for reasons that have been embarrassingly illustrated.

[Marmot]

"I spent an hour filling out the form ..."

Maybe it's a good time to lighten up and tell sea stories. I applied for mine before the Port Everglades office was open so had to go to Miami. The online bit went very well, which was surprising. I managed to get an appointment about two weeks later and went down, waited in the trailers for about half and hour and then spent another half hour going through the processing. The girl said that since my MMD was recent (just renewed) the TWIC should be ready in less than 4 weeks.

A month later I hadn't heard anything so tried to check the status online. The website said I was not enrolled! Hour long wait on the phone to hear a young lady say "Oh, yeah, that part of the system isn't working very well and the cards are taking about 8 weeks now."

Four weeks later I get a call saying the card is ready. Drive down to Port of Miami to pick it up and find they have turned the free parking lot into a paid parking lot to take advantage of the TWIC business. I frowned at the lady and she let me park for free. The trailer was full of longshoremen and port cops picking up their cards. The longshore guys were cursing a blue streak at having to pay to park. Waited for a half hour then spent another 15 minutes while the lady breathed life into the card. Finally TWIC'ed!

Funny thing though, a friend tried to use his to get past the jackbootettes at FLL airport screening and they told him the card was not valid ID. Go figure.

I went down to Miami to visit a friend passing through on a containership, was on the ship's visitor list, had a TWIC and MMD but since it was late the Miami cops had the bridge blocked off to "keep out drug dealers" and no amount of talking would even get them to call port security or the gate to confirm my story. It looks like we will all be very safe and secure when we are locked in our cells each night.

Oh well, Lockheed made a few bucks off me anyway and I am sure they have bills to pay too.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"I'm all for training and certification, but when people point to "mandatory minimum" training or "mandatory minimum" certification in lieu of experience or hands-on training to determine sufficiency or proficiency or ability, it scares the living daylights out some of us - as it should you, as a professional. "

I believe if you read my posts in this thread and others you will find that I am among the most vocal of critics of the current yacht licensing system for just that reason. I am also a very strong supporter of formal training, for reasons that have been embarrassingly illustrated.

I did read your posts, and none of what you said in this one was effectively communicated in the others.

[Marmot]

"... none of what you said in this one was effectively communicated in the others."

Geez, so now you want effective communication on top of good ideas and clear thinking?

Ok, thanks for the input. One of the dangers of self editing ... I thought I wrote what I said I meant in my head when I was typing it ... or something like that anyway.

[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by Marmot

"... none of what you said in this one was effectively communicated in the others."

Geez, so now you want effective communication on top of good ideas and clear thinking?

Ok, thanks for the input. One of the dangers of self editing ... I thought I wrote what I said I meant in my head when I was typing it ... or something like that anyway.

We've all done it, especially on subjects where we have passionate points of view. No worries!

[GalvBayTex]

thanks for the lively discussion regarding the current status of licensing, supply and demand for captains and the like...

now...what advice can the group give to those of us (41 yrs old and older) who wish to enter the industry for the first time?

I am a US citizen, have passed my classroom work for USCG 100 ton Masters and MCA Master Of Yachts 200T. I also have been to the office for my TWIC and am waiting for the pick up date. I am submitting the documents for both and do not expect any issues other than the normal processing time.

I was laid off a month ago from a desk job and I am trying to break free of the corporate world and not get sucked back in, but I need some help taking the first step.

Anyone else recently go down the path?

CB

[NYCAP123]

GalvBayTex,
For me it came 20 years ago at age 38. What I can tell you is that it's gotten harder. Sorry. The key is to be flexible and pay your dues. Everyone's path is different. Mine took me through working in a boatyard under some oldtime masters, followed by cleaning oilspills, dinneryachts, launch work, sport fishing, owning a tour boat, managing (2) marinas, doing deliveries, teaching, p/t captain, yacht management, etc., etc. That's after a lifetime of recreational boating. The fact is that even back then doors weren't open to "an old guy". I had to kick down every one.
Let me give you a lesson on what not to do. A few years back I had a new 50GT as my deckhand on a Florida run. At our first stop I showed him how I like a boat secured and told him that by the time we reach Florida he'll be a good deckhand. He told me "I don't have to learn how to be a deckhand, I'm a captain". I think he now sells shoes. Learn to be a good deckhand.

[luckylg]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

He told me "I don't have to learn how to be a deckhand, I'm a captain". I think he now sells shoes. Learn to be a good deckhand.

Good point NYCAP123: Be exceptional at the job you're getting paid to do, not second guessing the guy who has the job you would like to have.

[SSLillypad]

Yes there is nothing worse to do than act like a know it all. There is always something new to learn. I just hooked up with a new position in May and I'm in the over 40 group and was on land based jobs for most of my time. I've had my captain license and 10 years on inland waters, so I'm excited to spend time on near costal waters and learn something every day. I'm now a deckhand. You need to be able to still keep up with the tougher duties that comes your way with these starting positions until you get other positions come your way.

I am also over forty(43) But I am not a capt. or do I ever plan on becoming one. I am on the other hand a Chef and Massage Therapist. I have been working as a carpenter/whatever is needed guy for the past five years building custom Carolina boats.
I want to get into the crew end of things. I do have some delivery and deckhand/mate experience on sportfishers and a couple of cruisers.
My question is what kind of certification would I need to become more desirable as a chef's mate/deck hand/stew/crew type of person.
I have been a life guard most of my life and have all kinds of construction experience.
I know this is the wrong place for this question but most of the people posting here seem to be intelligent and on top of things going on in the industry.
Thanks,
Danny

[NYCAP123]

Good quals Danny. I think I'd push the chef end then seal the deal with DH and massage...oh and you can fix things. Don't think the age will factor in much. You're selling experience. Good luck.

[DocRon]

[quote=GalvBayTex] thanks for the lively discussion regarding the current status of licensing, supply and demand for captains and the like...

now...what advice can the group give to those of us (41 yrs old and older) who wish to enter the industry for the first time?

I am also 41 and have been in the industry years ago and want to reenter full time. I get the same old thing from all the crew agencies....that my age is a barrier!!!!

I am a qualified Master of Yachts 200t, PADI Dive Instructor, STCW, Chiropractor. I have experience including crossings. I am prepared to do deck work for a while to prove my worth and work my way up. I am willing , eager, capable, fit and healthy!! I am looking for my break!!! Any offers?

[DocRon]

In terms of experience vs qualifications.....

I remember when I was doing my PADI Instructor course 16 yrs ago in Ft Lauderdale.... I had the minimum required dives to do the course at that stage.....
One day we were going out for a dive and the course director turned the boat around and headed back to port. I asked if there was a problem with the boat and he said "NO, it is too rough for diving!" I looked around and could see a few ripples (in SA standards) and told him that we were Instructor level candidates and that everyone should at least be capable of diving in these conditions. I grew up diving on Aliwal Shoal and we launch through surf and waves sometimes 8ft plus.When I told him that I had dived in much worse conditions at beginner level and I would be teaching in much worse conditions that were present he thought I was nuts!! Believe me, I am very safety conscious individual and I have lived by the ocean all my life and was a professional lifeguard at one of the most dangerous public beaches around...Amanzimtoti! Yes and I have turned boats around when I thought it was unsafe for the people who I was diving with!!!.... We had guys on course whose log books at time looked impressive with 1000's of logged dives.....however 95% of those dives were inland and the guys simply could not handle the "rough" sea conditions.

In yachting it is much the same. Some people have lots of logged miles but never been beyond coastal waters. We need to assess each individual when placing them and look at the experience according to the conditions they will be working in. However some people just seem to have a natural ability and thet are deserved a chance as well.

In terms of age vs experience.... how is one meant to get experience without growing older?

So next time you are looking for crew I believe that age, experience and qualifications all come into play. I believe I have a bit of each!!!

[NYCAP123]

DocRon says: "We need to assess each individual when placing them and look at the experience according to the conditions they will be working in."
That statement is covered with a look at your license. 25 ton, 100, unlimited, inland, near coastal, open ocean, issue #, endorsements, etc. Then there are references. Granted some people just ask if you have a license or stop at your age (foolish), but that's why we make multiple copies of our resume.
At 41 it may be necessary to make your own breaks, but at 41 you have the experience to do it.

[DocRon]

Originally Posted by NYCAP123

At 41 it may be necessary to make your own breaks, but at 41 you have the experience to do it.

Granted I could go home to South Africa and start up a chiropractic practice and do some dive instruction in between for extra cash. However, South Africa has become one of the most violent countries in the world and the Rand is worth nothing. Currently trading at +-R10 to $1 and R18 to 1GBP and R12 to 1 Euro. I would rather be a deckhand on a yacht at 41 and prove myself that way than be a slave in my own country.

The only way I can earn some money that is worth something on international markets is working on a foreign flag vessel as I do not have residency in any other country other than SA. I guess I could marry and get a work permit, something I am considering deeply. Just need to find the right girl!!