[C4ENG]

Teena

I would have to believe that if you were an owner of a large yacht you would probably experience a high volume rate of crew turn over with the veiws and opinions you have expressed.

[Mark in SBA]

This thread really points up the differences between U.S. employment customs and the rest of the world. Most of the U.S. owners are founders and/or CEOs of very successful U.S. corporations, and thus regard their crew employees more as a team than as some poster put it, "servants". If I were an owner relying on my full-time crew to protect my $200M USD investment, I'd be ****ed certain to treat them well and afford them the respect they deserve.

Perks such as use of the pool whilst the owner is not onboard or first-class crew accomodations provides a powerful incentive to help retain full-proficiency crews and reduce turnover.

[C4ENG]

Mr. YachtForum Adm.

I feel very disappointed that we can not poke fun at one another in here (in a clean way that is with no profanity or harsh insult and like I have done) to only have it deleted. I have to wonder how much you may have influcenced other topics and have altered the natural flow of what would had really been said or going on in a subject becuase you did not approve of an opinion or statement.
Of course I know this is your web site and if we don't like it we can leave, but I would have to think that it is us people who make this web site successful or not.


My origanal joke for all you who wonder:

(Edit: If the Admin deleted once, there's no reason to repeat it again.)

End joke

[Crewagency]

That is now a total new point of view. American owners are the better owners or did they have much more money than the others and so it is not important what happens on board ?
Okay it is my business and it runs much better with much crew turnovers but be sure that is not my way of the business, I select the Crew carefully and normally made many phone calls or if possible also personal interviews before I place the people on board. It tooks sometimes a week to check all the references etc.

So I am always disapointed when I got a call from an Owner or Captain that one of my Crew want to terminate the contract and in 90 % the reason for this is not the situation on board it is more money offered on another boat.

When I post an open position in my website for example 100m MY Chief Engineer
9000 € 1 Month on / 1 month off full paid rotation start ASAP
what do you think what happens ??
My mailbox is full with CVs and nobody asked what accomodation, can I use the Jacuzzi also, is it allowed to use the Tenders, etc.
The only question is for how long is the contract.

So when we spoke about about loyalty we should see both sides.
The owner has to be loyal ( that means has to pay ) and the Crew ??

I think the only way to make both sides happy is a very good rotation planning for all positions on board.
In the moment we hold 250 Ships in Full Management with over 9000 Crew in rotation and it works. I am sure that this is the future also in the yachting industry. We also will have some more benefits with this.
For example the C/E or the Captain in OFF modus can carefully plan refits or repairs is able to negotiate this with different shipyards in person, can manage charter requests and clear all the papers and the person ON is able to provide 100 % perfomance to owners and guests.

[JackofallTrades]

Originally Posted by Crewagency

Do you think that providing an envelope to the harbourmaster is the right way to get a nice berth in a busy season ? or to sign an invoice 20% higher to ensure that the service guy will come also next time to your boat ? etc.etc.

Unfortuantely the answer to the above is usually yes. Although it isn't exactly honest and above board it helps secure the one thing that all of us strive to achieve, guest satisfaction. I know for a fact that many of the Port Captains that we visit recieve that nice envelope when we turn up at the beginning of the med season. But it ensures that when we wnat to get stern too in St. Tropez, we get stern too in St. Tropez, keeping the guest smiling all the way.
Likewise if I have a good but extrememly busy AC technician in my contact files I will not hesitate to give him a little extra so that when I call him he drops everything and comes to me first, fixing the problem and again keeping the guests happy (and cool).
It seems to be the nature of the industry that employs us. Things are just different in the world of super yachts. For example, how many other industry sectors require a photograph on your CV as standard. A friend of mine works in Human Resources for a large UK based firm. She was horrified when I told her the many personal things you have to reveal prior to employment (photograph, smoker, tatoos and piercings, nationality, ethnicity the list goes on). Again all I could say was that was the nature of the industry.

Not that I'm complaining! I can't see myself doing anything else! Yachting has provided me with so many personal and professional opportunities that i couldn't have imagined with my previosu employers.

[Teenna]

Originally Posted by C4ENG

Teena

I would have to believe that if you were an owner of a large yacht you would probably experience a high volume rate of crew turn over with the veiws and opinions you have expressed.

I doubt.
I would, like I do in my life elswhere, built my crew on a mutual respect. I'd pay them a good money because they are professionals (and because now this is the way the market is), but exactly because they are professionals, they don't screw in my bed and pee in my jacuzzi, ok? With 9000 per month (month on/month off) they will take their dates in their nice hotel room with a jacuzzi, if necessary and do all they want to do there. And if they will desire a massage or a mud bath, they will go to the Hotel the Paris above the marina, pay 100 bucks and enter the therms just like any other mortal on this world. But my yacht I built for myself. And I want this respect from my crew.

[Ken Bracewell]

Considering the general trend of this thread I can't think of a more appropriate day to say "God Bless America!"
Happy 4th of July Everyone...

[YachtForums]

Originally Posted by C4ENG

Mr. YachtForum Adm.

I feel very disappointed that we can not poke fun at one another in here (in a clean way that is with no profanity or harsh insult and like I have done) to only have it deleted. I have to wonder how much you may have influcenced other topics and have altered the natural flow of what would had really been said or going on in a subject becuase you did not approve of an opinion or statement.

My origanal joke for all you who wonder:

I would have to believe that if you were an owner of a large yacht you would probably go through crew like toilet paper.

End joke

(Thanks for the edit Kevin)

C4ENG,

I’m sorry you are disappointed. Let me see if I can further dissatisfy you…

Your remark and my follow-up were NOT relevant to the topic. To put your concerns at rest… it is VERY rare that I remove a post, unless it is found to be in poor taste, obscene or malicious. If you are concerned with how I may be influencing threads, then I must ask… how are you influencing the thread with toilet paper jokes?

If you have an issue with me, contact me. If you feel it your moral obligation to protect the rights of YF members, then by all means... start a thread on the subject. But please… don’t change the vector of thread because you have a grievance with me.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assert that I may have a little more experience running a forum than you do. I know this is hard to believe and really far fetched, but go along with me on a hypothetical basis for a moment… if you came across a forum and found people making short, snide remarks of little relevance… is this a place you would be interested in joining or sharing knowledge?

It’s ironic… I thought I was doing you (and everyone) a favor by removing your comment and my response. And then you re-posted it.

[Garry Hartshorn]

It is interesting that so many see this issue in black and white in there own opinon of what the standards should be across the board. But lets face it we all have different personal standards. And it is up to the owner to set what the standards are the yacht in question, and for the captain aided by the ships officers to enforce them.
As far as kick backs go they used to be common place especially in europe, I always put them back into ships petty cash and noted in the accounts what who they were from, I had an owner who know and understood the system. I haven't been offered a kickback in years, but I am sure it still happens.

[C4ENG]

Originally Posted by YachtForums

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assert that I may have a little more experience running a forum than you do. I know this is hard to believe and really far fetched, but go along with me on a hypothetical basis for a moment… if you came across a forum and found people making short, snide remarks of little relevance… is this a place you would be interested in joining or sharing knowledge?

Mr. YachtForums,

I have to agree with you on that. I would not want to travel through this thread if it was full short snide remarks with not much meaning like I have done. I am sorry to everyone for distrupting the natrual flow of the conversation. Please continue on the topic.

[Loren Schweizer]

Originally Posted by sailronin

It sounds as if some on this forum have had bad experiences with crew. If that was the general feeling with owners I doubt our industry would be growing. Owners need to enjoy yachting, yacht ownership and their crew. If owning a yacht is a cause of constant worry about people (including crew) taking advantage of them or mis treating their investment the wealthy will find other things to do with their free time.

Dave

Good point, Dave. There is substantial growth in the numbers of larger yachts, the owners of which are predominantly entrepeneurs, one would assume, who know how to work with people (excepting the odd dot-commer with a bad haircut, natch) and understand delegation. That is, after all, how they became successful enough to enjoy a life in yachting.
Further assuming that the yacht captain, who was hired by the owner ( and who knows what pleases/displeases said owner), to manage the crew, can we not imagine that it is this captain who sets the tone for using/not using the onboard toys & amenities.
While the links for Teenna's nymphs-in-the-pool photos are gone (dang it), if I were walking past this scene in the marina, I'd have to assume that the captain OK'ed this shipboard style because he knew the owner didn't have a problem with it.

BTW, in the latest issue of that glossy megayacht periodical "Show-something-or-other", there's an article about modern crew's quarters design ( in both a De Vries and a Van Lent, no less) and it touches on the importance of maintaining a happy crew.
Someone--the owner, or the captain, or the yard, or a collaboration-- deemed this to be as important as the owner's accommodations areas.

[Teenna]

We are talking about BIG here. I agree, that in this case, having 25 or more people on the crew list one has to think that instead of having them all around the yacht in their free time (and not offering them only the mooring deck for a smoke or two) ther should be a proper "free time " area on board, including perhaps on the bilge deck or lower deck (where in this large yachts there is some extra space) a gym, perhaps a cinema, definetly an internet point, and, why not, a little spa. Definetly a barber "shop" (proper cut is fundamental as it is pedicure and manicure) and at the end also a litlle "spiritual" corner. Go laugh, but some best crew can be of a muslim religion.

[airship]

Apologies for not getting back earlier. In fact, I had to reread the whole thread from the beginning because I forgot what exactly we were supposed to be discussing... Anyway, the original issue of the abusive use by crew of facilities aboard seems to have widened to encompass other more general issues involving professional crew...

Teenna, I do think you enjoy provoking people...?! You started this thread with a link to some photos ostensibly of crew on M/Y Ice using the swimming pool aboard. Adding that the captain only bothers to come down from his villa in Grasse when the owner is aboard. Are you perhaps merely envious that some in the yachting industry still just have it too good from your personal standpoint?! Anyway, Grasse is really not a very glamourous place to live. Some regard it as an "inland dormitory town" for those who can't quite afford to live on the coast. Of course, it's world-famous for the production of essences that go into perfumes etc. but it also has an important prison on a prominent hillside overlooking the town. On the other hand, Mougins has always been pretty excusive and is even more glamorous today. I know of a captain who lived there 20 years ago...and still does. The 40m. yacht used to have a permanent berth in Antibes and the owner had invested in several other berths there on the advice of his skipper, who oversaw these investments on behalf of his employer in addition to his normal duties. Life was hard for a skipper in those days: satellite navigation was still in its infancy (one good fix an hour was excellent!) and GPS had not yet entered the common vocabulary; the yacht was used continuously by the owner, his children and invited guests for almost 2 months every year, which mean't being away from home for about 4 whole months between May and August all told; the rest of the year, the skipper would have to come in about 10am every other day, devoting sufficient time to ensure that the off-season work schedule was proceeding according to plan etc., before a hefty lunch with assorted yacht brokers, port officials and other captains and just mates etc. (sorry Crewagency but I don't believe that crew agents or even yacht managers were very thick on the ground back then...?! ), after which there would follow a siesta by (his own pool) and perhaps a round of golf or some tennis once it became cooler later on. I bet that what I just recounted has Teenna literally steaming...

I'd just like to say that I tend to agree with what Garry Hartshorn had to say on the issues. My only confusion is, when offered kickbacks, why did you not just ask for these kickbacks to be shown as a discount appearing on the actual invoice? At least that way, you would have made it abundantly clear to the supplier that you weren't "on the take", regardless of how the kickbacks were officially accounted for afterwards...

Often, one surmises whether what yacht owners actually spend as an important added-expense to "running a yacht" on employing the services of assorted yacht broker/managers and crew agents "over and above that of employing a single competent yacht captain", actually produces any net reduction in the overall costs or other benefit...?! Have there been any independent studies into this...? Why do the majority of large yacht owners today appear to feel obliged to not only use their broker for buying and selling, but for almost everything else too? Are the majority newcomers, or have they just been sufficiently terrified into believing that without these professional after-sales services, the owner will soon be fleeced competely without a dime left...?! Undoubtedly, having a dishonest skipper, or merely incompetent manager or agent would easily skew results no end too...?! It's all very well for a manager to say that they can control costs or that they can purchase parts and services at a wholesale rate. But can they deliver these when and where required...?! In my experience, even the most well-established majors just don't have the expertise or infrastructure in place everywhere their clients cruise (and more importantly, break down or require parts or supplies urgently), wherein the reliance upon competent local-suppliers (and additional costs to cover the supplier's margins - they're not being paid a standard fat fee every month by the owner "to take care of things" ) It's all very well "standing by" whilst sitting in an air-conditioned office in Cannes, Antibes, Monaco, Fort Lauderdale or wherever but when the engineer needs a technician or part to rapidly repair the owner's spa or whatever, your professional yacht captain had better have his own private filofax in addition to relying on the official yacht manager...

Crewagency:

In the moment we hold 250 Ships in Full Management with over 9000 Crew in rotation and it works. I am sure that this is the future also in the yachting industry. We also will have some more benefits with this.

But just how many of these 9,000 crew are employed aboard yachts?! I admit, there aren't many yachts I deal with which have a "crew rotation" of "x" period "ON" and "x" period "OFF". On one of these few yachts I deal with, the chief engineer actually took a major pay cut in order to justify the additional expense of employing another chief in order to implement a 2 months "ON" and 2 months "OFF" schedule (compromise between he wanting the time off and the owner wanting to keep him on). Apart from emergencies, I'd be surprised if he expected to be disturbed during his "OFF" period though. Yet, it appears that in your commercial world, someone may be "OFF", yet be expected to undertake onshore duties on a regular basis...?! By the way, do you really want your crews negotiating directly with shipyards etc. - wouldn't they have even more opportunity to obtain kickbacks...?! You also remarked on the concept of loyalty. Presumably, your income source is from the employer, not the crew member who probably does not pay you anything directly for your services. I present you with a hypothetical case (but I think a realistic one): You place one chief engineer aboard an older yacht. You spent a week checking his references and it appears that you did your job right because he does a good job according to the feedback you've had from the owner and/or manager of the vessel aboard which you placed him/her. Six months later, another owner/manager asks you to find 20-30 crew for a brand new yacht. Now, where are the loyalties?!

Do you contact that chief engineer that you placed 6 months ago because 1) The pay and conditions are better, it would be a step-up on the ladder for him?

2) You don't want to risk losing this new client who is engaging you for a whole crew, not just one or two, so you encourage this chief engineer to move because it would be in your combined best interests...?

3) You don't contact that chief engineer because of this so-called "loyalty conflict", you decide instead to risk disappointing a client on whom you're going to earn commissions on 20-30 crew, by taking the chance of supplying a new chief engineer (even if you checked their references for a week beforehand) of whom you really know nothing about...

Yeah, right...?! There's loyalty and best interest (whose?)...always! So, let's not forget that

The best chief engineer I ever came across was one who knew how to repair lawn mowers. He knew how to deal with all the yacht managers and agents too. Strangely enough, that yacht had astro-turf up on the sundeck...

[Teenna]

Just to not interrupt too much your interesting post, YES, I do like to provoke, it's my nature, and no, I haven't got in mind Grasse centrum, but I didn't count on someones such precise knowledge of what i was talking about. I had more in mind lands above Grasse, where one can keep some olive trees and see down to the coast.

[Leveller]

I think this is one of the most interesting threads I ever read in YF.

I can understand both sides in this discussion. But there are some points I can not agree with, also, both sides.

Thinking of 150 ft. at a cost of 35 to 50 million $ and yearly maintenence at lets say 10 % of the building cost, what are 50 $ for gas for the jetski? If someone can pay the built and the maintenence of a yacht this size this wouldn't doing him any harm. If he needs to save every cent to let his dream go on than something on his side went wrong. A yacht is not a Cobra you put in the garage when not using it.

Surely I would get angry if I would find out that the crew is having a lazy time while I am away from the yacht, not giving my "baby" the professional care which they are paid for, or find the silver knifes at EBAY, whilst the knifes aboard replaced by some plagiats from china, or chocolate between the seats in my cinema.

But I think of loyality in an other way. If we are on a trip through an hurrican, pirate active zones or other kinds of troubble, I would really be happy if I can count on everyone aboard at 100%. If there are misfeelings due to slaveryvessel like crewquarters or middleage behavior of the owner we will never reach 100%. And what will you do if the crew, after you played Napoleon, leaves you alone in the middle of nowhere?

I have done this once, the owner wanted to cross the Biscaya, not travelling the coastline, in late october, 6 to 8 ft. waves, stormwarning, with a 68 ft. Sea Ray like fly, with defect radar and after an electrical breakdown, without all navigational instruments. We left him in Brest, France. He hired a fisherman and tried it by himself. The wreck is still in the Golf of Lorient. Before that it was a week of stupid rules. Don't touch that, polish the toilet till you can see your face in it after using, don't use the shower, "No, you can't eat something out of the fridge. Haven't you brought something with you? No? Then you have to stay hungry."

We do only transfering jobs, but for some clients we would do everything, even cleaning the cats toilet or playing holiday nanny for the children, not only aboard. But this special services comes out of loyality over many years from both sides. Most clients specialy in the above 100 ft. sector have no problems with letting us using all the yacht facilitys during the transfer as long they are in the original shape when the transfer is over.

I think Lady Lola is a good example for making crewquarters so to have a happy crew. Consequense: Happy and relaxed owner.

Leveller