[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Marmot

Got any citations to support that? Especially any ALJ certificate actions against a passenger resulting from an operator, licensed or otherwise being found responsible for an accident or incident?

I don't have any citations to support this with respect to the marine business or the example I have cited above. I have, however, been named in several lawsuits in my businesses related to the construction industry. In all of these cases, I prevailed and in 2 of them I had my legal fees paid for by the plaintiff in each respective case because of the frivolous nature of their claim.

It is because of my construction industry incidents that I am wary of the scenario outlined in my original post.

[saltysenior]

so you are saying.....if i was a guest on board, lying in the guest stateroom w/ the owners daughter,when the boat collided with another,i,because i held the only c.g. ''ticket '' aboard, would be the one to be held responsible.????

[Captain Jim]

No, I'm not saying that. But my concern is that a lawyer for the boat (owner) that was hit might say that in a lawsuit that I might be named in.

[proskipper]

I often go out with MYs where I am employed to do deckwork, fenders, lines etc.
Ok, I'm not the skipper, the owner is but cos I way "outrank" him when it comes to tickets I consider that I am the skipper.
Bottom line.
Are you being payed for being there?
If so, top ticket takes the heat.

[K1W1]

Originally Posted by proskipper

Are you being payed for being there?

Hi,

I think this is where the make or break point is in this case.

We do not know if the OP is employed by the Owner in another role away from yachting or is purely invited onboard by the Owner for his knowledge/wit/charisma.

Maybe the Owner feels safer with this guy onboard alongside the new Captain but hasn't bothered to tell anyone.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by proskipper

Are you being payed for being there?
If so, top ticket takes the heat.

Nonsense. There are many instances of masters with "top tickets" working as mates on vessels because captains jobs are scarce at the moment. If the captain screws up it is the captain's problem, not the mate's.

If all you guys who think that just holding a ticket makes you the man of the hour when the ambergris hits the prop would just get together and provide a single citation of a USCG or MCA or any other maritime authority taking action against the license of a passenger or other crewman who just happened to hold an equal or higher license than the person in charge, I for one would love to read it. With the certainty that has been expressed in this regard, there must be something in print, right?

[K1W1]

Hi,

I tend to agree with the poster above.

As holder of a Chiefs Ticket for Motor Driven Ships I do not feel any obligation to get involved nor be responsible for the operation or activities of others when travelling on ferries on Rivers which I do at least twice a day at the moment or Cross Channel ones on overnight voyages.

I look forward to anyone being able to provide some interesting reading material in regard to anyone actually getting some legal hassle for being a passenger on a boat just as I doubt that anyone holding an Airline Transport License has ever been charged when an airliner that they were a non flight crew passenger on crashed and they survived.

[travler]

i think it is like an airplane the pilot in command is the one who is busted, just because you out rank every one else don't matter, un less you are getting paid then the rules change

just a thought travler

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by travler

unless you are getting paid then the rules change

What rules are those?

Sticking to the "getting paid" and airline pilot theme, there are hundreds of "dead heading" pilots sitting in a passenger seat at this very moment. They are getting paid, they are employed by the airline on which they are flying, they are certificated to take command of that aircraft in many if not most cases, and may even be senior to the captain in the left seat. But one thing stands out above all else - if the captain of that airliner breaks a rule or bends the thing, the captain sitting in a passenger seat has absolutely nothing to do with it and has no reason to fear blame for anything.

[Ju52]

You need a licence to be a captain. The captain is a role or employment state, nothing else. This difference makes it. As guest you are a guest.

ICE the role can moved by the owner (for ex.) , but not by a licence states.

my 2 cents

[proskipper]

Hmmm.
My position is that I am directly employed by the charterer.
He may only have an ICC and I would be failing in my obligations towards him if I let him do something stupid resulting in loss etc.
To that end I consider myself in charge.
He may well call himself skipper but I wouldn't like to test that in a courtroom.
I very much think the heat would be all mine.

[Wanderer]

In the UK, particularly on the shorter cross-Channel routes, many of the ferry companies have two entire crews on board at anyone time. This includes two Captains. One is the Day Captain, the other the Night Captain. They each work a 12 hour shift. At the end of the shift they formally hand over command, recording same in the Official Log Book. Once the command is changed the Duty Captain is fully in command irrespective of his seniority. By convention the off duty Captain does not wear his stripes so there is no confusion with the crew. This is a very clear procedure that has been in place for many years.

The only point I would concede to Capt Jim's concerns are if, as an onboard guest, he were to witness an incident/accident caused by the actual Captain he could most certainly be dragged into a courtroom by the lawyers as a material (and expert) witness. Whilst this can be disagreeable & time consuming it is inconceivable that any liability could be attached him.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

The only point I would concede to Capt Jim's concerns are if, as an onboard guest, he were to witness an incident/accident caused by the actual Captain he could most certainly be dragged into a courtroom by the lawyers as a material (and expert) witness. Whilst this can be disagreeable & time consuming it is inconceivable that any liability could be attached him.

Thanks for all the responses. After taking in all the positions mentioned above, this is probably the scenario that would happen.

BTW, In the situation I described in post 1 of this thread, I was a guest and not paid, nor was I asked or expected to perform any duties. I think I will stay away from the bridge more on my next day aboard as a guest.

[curtarmy]

Originally Posted by saltysenior

so you are saying.....if i was a guest on board, lying in the guest stateroom w/ the owners daughter,when the boat collided with another,i,because i held the only c.g. ''ticket '' aboard, would be the one to be held responsible.????

OMG! Nobody is warning you!! You are definitely at risk of great peril and penalty!

As the "Captain" in the room, the obviously naive daughter will assume she is subordinate and must follow your orders. When she comes back to reality sexual harassment and/or rape charges will surely follow as well as conviction.

Worse yet pregnancy will bring on absolute DNA testing followed surely by "death by shotgun" or worse, "marriage by shotgun".

The citations are too numerous to list!

Do not go down below with the owners daughter!

[Marmot]

See, I said it was a weird Walter Mitty thing, like Walter moved to Bizzaro World though ...