[Seafarer]

Originally Posted by sagharborskip

Capt J

Just a note on differences b/t S.FL and Sag...

In S.FL you can live much more inexpensively as far as rent or even ownership. If you're a bit older (like we are) and don't want to share living arrangements, finding rent for less than $1200/month for something habitable is VERY difficult.

Now buying is another story. South Florida has always had deals if you were willing to travel minutes or so. Well, we live in Hampton Bays which is 20 miles (30 minutes which is, thankfully, HALF the time it took up til 2 years ago when a major road alteration cleared a major bottleneck) from Sag Harbor and a starter home AFTER the GREAT RECESSION is still in the mid 300's!!

You CAN NOT find anything less.

Add that to a much shorter season (5 months at the outside) and you have a very tight model for trying to survive.

More later...

This makes me wish we hadn't sold the house in Port Jeff in 2000.

[NYCAP123]

Originally Posted by Seafarer

Not quite as true as you'd like to believe. The UAW forced the formerly-big three to continue to pay wages to non-working individuals (the jobs bank), in addition to paying union dues for those non-working collectors. The union dues were over 50% of the hourly take-home of the wage workers ($14 for the UAW, $25 for the paycheck, $15 for benefits and taxes).

As jobs were reduced, it was the cost of maintaining those non-workers on the books, in addition to providing them health care from retirement until death, plus a pension that really screwed GM. Why did the UAW fight to keep the jobs bank for so long? The unions were the fattest fat cats in this whole mess.

Know what the retirement package was for salaried employees? Ten years. Ten and done. No health care, no pension, no nothing come day one of year eleven. Too bad, so sad, should have planned better.


By the way, the going rate for licensed security guards in the NY/NJ/CT area is $10 an hour. The guy you're betting is going to keep theives from stealing the electronics off the boats in the marina is getting paid less than the boat washers, and not as scab labor.

Unions are a necessary evil. But in many cases they're as big an abuser of the working man as the employer. I didn't mean to say the Insurance companies and pension fund administers were the only ones with their hands in other's pockets. Just that it was not the line worker who brought these companies down.
There are jobs where $10 and no benefits is acceptable. Jobs for students who are subsidized by their parents for example, or jobs that require neither brain nor braun such as a night watchman (remember, his job is only to act as a deterant by his presence) which can be filled as a second job by say cops or P.O. workers who already have benefits and a decent wage. Nobody is going to wash boats all day as a second job for long. It's hard work.
Once we hit a certain point in life we have a moral obligation to assist others who are less fortunate, and certainly not to increase our profits at the expense of the poorest among us who have no more power than to hold out their hands and say please.

[travler]

Man Oh Man What A Conversation

The Cheap Travler Who Washes And Runs His Own 3.5 Million Dollar Boat

[sagharborskip]

travlr...

You said it! That's what we're up against. No matter what we charge by the hour/by the foot/per year, this isn't a business to get rich in...

Maybe if you head off for the super-yacht scene and put in your 30 years living w/ no expenses and you're smart with your money, you might have a nice, normal retirement.

And maybe if you get one of those rich Americans who flag their boats non-US so they don't have to pay their sales taxes or pay American wage rates, you can get them to direct deposit to your own off shore bank account. Then, maybe, you might be happily driving your "BMW".

Us, we have a new Toyota Tacoma, 4 cylinder truck (our 4 banger gets over 27 mpg!) to haul all our crap around from boat to boat.

It never ceases to amaze me how guys who have enough money to own a million + $$ boat will arch their eyebrows in surprise when you tell them how much you need charge so you can pay $1000/month for health care for 2 people...AFTER TAXES!! We're talking, $18,000 gross income just so you can go to the doctor. Forget about eating, rent, clothes, and, oh, yeah, "the payment on my BEEMER".

I often forget that that's how these guys got to have the $ in the first place...

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by sagharborskip

And maybe if you get one of those rich Americans who flag their boats non-US so they don't have to pay their sales taxes or pay American wage rates ...

If you really think those rich Americans don't dump huge piles of boat money into the U.S. economy you need to spend less time washing boats and more time learning about the industry.

And thank Heavens they don't pay American wage rates, there wouldn't be many crew available to them.

[Ken Bracewell]

Originally Posted by Marmot

And thank Heavens they don't pay American wage rates, there wouldn't be many crew available to them.

Marmot,
I'm not clear what you mean by this. Do you mean that American Wages are low and that others wouldn't work for American rates?
Or do you mean that if there were more US flagged yachts, there would be a shortage of US crew to staff them?

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by Ken Bracewell

Do you mean that American Wages are low and that others wouldn't work for American rates?

It's not that American wages are low, but if we compare apples to apples, an American youngy with equal skills and experience working for an American owner on an American flag vessel in American waters and paying American taxes would be living in poverty compared to what he or she would make on a foreign flag yacht in the charter fleet. Since young Americans have just as much chance at sailing on a red flag boat while being paid Euro competitive salaries and taking their own approach to taxation, there is little reason to believe they would do better under the American flag.

I don't think it is reasonable to compare the yachting industry to the flag of convenience deep sea fleets when it comes to the reasons for an American owner to flag out. This is one of those cases where the crew actually benefits in many ways.

I think the idea that an American owner is somehow getting away with something is absurd. Many of them buy American built yachts outfitted with American equipment and machinery and use American yards to maintain them. The amount of money this owner puts into the American economy is beyond the comprehension of the casual observer who only sees a pretty yacht with some strange flag on it.

Originally Posted by Ken Bracewell

Or do you mean that if there were more US flagged yachts, there would be a shortage of US crew to staff them?

Though it wasn't what I meant,that may well be the case. It is difficult to crawl through the hawsepipe these days and few academy grads are willing to go into yachting for a myriad of reasons. The oil patch and the brown water fleet offer lower level American license holders far more security and advancement opportunities than the yacht industry.

I very rarely see an American CV come across the desk. Maybe if we had more large yachts more would be interested but given the ease of obtaining MCA licensed crew for flag of convenience boats there is little to benefit an American owner to flag American.

[sagharborskip]

Marmot,

Apples to apples, oranges to oranges...OK. Luckily, there IS a healthy amount of free enterprise out there.

We charge what we like and we get a certain amount of business. We could charge less and work more. I'm not that guy!

An owner chooses to pay what he wants and gets a certain amount of work in return. He could pay more (or less) and would get more (or less) in return.

What began this thread was an the idea of trying to get more than you paid for at whatever the strike price initially agreed upon.

I don't dispute the notion that Americans with foreign flagged boats put a good amount of money into the economy in all the ways you stated. It's just my personal observation that there's a very shrewd attitude towards saving money that starts with not paying sales tax that often trickles down to paying salaries.

Sorry, but it's hard to know who you're speaking with in these forums and what their position/background/experience and mental health is (you're not a Zoro-Astrian are you? Or a Scientologist, perhaps?)

Certainly, anyone on one side of the fence is going to feel a certain way (captains of red-flagged boats seem quite happy to have Filipino crew while captains and crew of American flagged boats quite regularly complain about the lower pay scale of the foreign flagged boats) and, quite naturally, feel that it's for the best.

Again, this thread was meant to share the thoughts re: day captaining and has since devolved into a bit of mud slinging.

I believe it's anyone's right to negotiate any pay scale they think they can get and it's any owner's right to try to negotiate in whatever they think their best interest is.

It's certainly my experience to have seen many boats have a revolving door of crew when/if the crew are either not compensated fairly or treated well. It's not in any of our interests to find boat owners who have the financial means to enjoy boating leave the business due to unhappy relationships with their crew.

Alternatively, I'm acquainted with many crew who have quite healthy, mutually beneficial relationships that have spanned entire careers. Obviously, everyone is getting something out of the deal...

Boating is an EXPENSIVE business and to think you are going to get it on the cheap is just plain wrong.

If you think you can care for and maintain your 62' Azimut to show room standards with occasional day workers, you are mistaken. If you think you can get away with hiring a captain when all you really need is a deck hand and can get away with treating the captain like a deck hand, again, you are mistaken.

That's where we began all this...

[Natalie]

It is certain that there are people who practice the "art" of stinginess throughout their dealings with people who provide services, not only with their boats. It is their way, their character. We can strive to find better characters.

[Marmot]

Originally Posted by sagharborskip

I don't dispute the notion that Americans with foreign flagged boats put a good amount of money into the economy in all the ways you stated. It's just my personal observation that there's a very shrewd attitude towards saving money that starts with not paying sales tax that often trickles down to paying salaries.

They made enough money to buy the yacht by knowing how to avoid paying more tax than they are obligated to pay. Most owners didn't steal the money and most didn't make it by running slave gangs in their offshore sweatshops. They are not ripping off the US taxpayer or worker, they pay for their pleasure and a lot of people make a good living and pay a lot of taxes with what those owners pay.

Most foreign flag yachts enter the US on a private registry and pay sales taxes to the yards and suppliers just like you do. You would probably like to make what they pay in taxes.

Most owners pay the going rate for crew. The state of the economy and the availablility of crew determines the pay scale. They can't run without crew and they pay what it takes to hire them. Plus fees, plus insurance, plus transportation, plus vacations, plus meals, plus uniforms, plus cars, plus plus plus ... and they pay American taxes on what they buy here.

Sorry, but it's hard to know who you're speaking with in these forums and what their position/background/experience and mental health is (you're not a Zoro-Astrian are you? Or a Scientologist, perhaps?)...

Does your position change depending on who you are responding to?

Certainly, anyone on one side of the fence is going to feel a certain way (captains of red-flagged boats seem quite happy to have Filipino crew while captains and crew of American flagged boats quite regularly complain about the lower pay scale of the foreign flagged boats) and, quite naturally, feel that it's for the best.

You are muddying the waters. American flag vessels cannot hire Filipino crew. We have laws that prohibit non-citizens from working on American flag vessels (with a couple of exceptions). Red flag vessels can hire anyone they like and Filipinos are generally excellent seamen. They get paid the same as an American or Brit would be paid for the job they fill on the yacht. The position determines the pay, not the nationality of the person filling it.

As far as American captains and crew complaining, that is a specious twist of an issue that has nothing to do with yachting. The existence of the American merchant marine is threatened by the existence of a fleet of flag of convenience ships whose owners hire villagers from 3rd world nations and pay obscenely low wages and work them without offering the social benefits which we consider normal and expect.

It is the equivalent of competing with products made by slaves, or if the county sheriff decided to hire out his prisoners to wash boats in Sag Harbor for almost nothing just to keep them busy and provide money for candy bars.

If you think you can care for and maintain your 62' Azimut to show room standards with occasional day workers, you are mistaken. If you think you can get away with hiring a captain when all you really need is a deck hand and can get away with treating the captain like a deck hand, again, you are mistaken.

A lot of that goes on outside my office window, it keeps a lot of dayworkers and freelancers alive while they look for a permanent job ... besides, didn't you just write:

"I believe it's anyone's right to negotiate any pay scale they think they can get and it's any owner's right to try to negotiate in whatever they think their best interest is."