[Steven H]

Originally Posted by BarryClay

Ok, and I agree, so what is your solution to engine bay design? .

Well, have persons involved that actually have rebuild engines at sea and have worked on larger vessels for longer periods of time where not everything went as supposed to.

Modern technology allows to build a complete virtual 3D tour of the vessel before even one sheet of metal is cut or ordered. Have those images looked at and investigated by experienced people would be a better way. Take the new London Heatrow terminal 5 building as an example. Only after re-investigating and re-creating the 3D images they found out that the walking escalators would have to be build inside the terminal or that the terminal design-phase needed to be altered. Otherwise there was no way that they could place the walkways and escalators. Now and we are talking of the biggest airport-buildings being constructed in the last few years and with a very high level of architectural skill on board the project. Why not repeat it in the yachting industry.

The current designers use this already for interior and exterioir designing and hydro-dynamic testing, why not extend it just that little bit further. Most of the time complex situations need the simplest of solutions, but youmay need to look at it from a different viewpoint.

THAT should be the real talent of a succesfull designer / architect. And history has proven this over and over again.

The best idea's are generated when under pressure, so people that needed to perform ordinary tasks at out-of-the-ordinary places or times are the best sources of experience.

IMHO it all boiles down to experience with working in and on boats and later having evolved in designing them. I don't know how many of the current designers have actually this type of people on their team, but they should be considered absolutely key. And obviously this is not just for the engine-room design, but goes for every aspect of yachting.

[AMG]

Originally Posted by Steven H

IMHO it all boiles down to experience with working in and on boats and later having evolved in designing them. I don't know how many of the current designers have actually this type of people on their team, but they should be considered absolutely key. And obviously this is not just for the engine-room design, but goes for every aspect of yachting.

As I have lived onboard a couple of yachts for five years, worked as a hands-on captain and also as a yacht broker, now designing yachts I am glad you asked...

Unfortunately you are right about the problems with bad designs. Many buyers are not very experienced and if the yacht brokers should know and tell them the full truth on what is behind some of the glossy exteriors, many yachts would remain unsold...

This can be a long story, but to keep it short I´ll start with the initial problem that a custom made boat is designed and built from scratch every time. Can you imagine that with a car or an airplane? The chance of mistakes when you put together a new team and new techniques and new materials and the most recent equipment? And each time the yacht gets bigger and the expectations grew and more new ideas (like electric pods) and gadgets are incorporated.

We used to say that an average yacht, 100-150 feet included 2.000 drawings!

Next problem is what you are pointing at, the lack of hands-on experience. Not only the designers but also the engineers and the boat builders have very limited experience of the day-to-day life on a boat at sea or in port and what the crew have to do to keep it floating, alive and shining.

The idea of making a useful and realistic 3-D rendering of the engine room would probably cost more than building it, since there are so many fittings, tubes and wires that you would need a committe of people fighting around the computer. It is probably too complex to achieve since as I said, there are always new equipment you have sometimes not even seen before it arrives.

There are many more design errors and blunders made on yachts because of sheer ignorance. Things that will cost in terms of more expensive construction and maintenance, more crew needed, perhaps less good working and living environment leading to less good crew and finally you just want to replace the yacht. Some people say this is what keeps the industry busy, but in worst case people will also give up yachting.

But, there are solutions. A good yacht broker would help the unexperienced buyer to put together a team prior to construction. What you need early on is a project manager and a captain. It can be the same person. They can together with the designer/-s and the owner decide on all the aspects and desires of the dreamyacht so that nothing is left aside that later end up as a compromise. They will together select the best (for this project) shipyard and follow the construction on site, so that there is always someone that can answer to problems, make solutions and take decisions.

As I said, this story could be very long but there are people out there who united can get you a very good yacht. And it happens every day

[TRY]

Hi,

Although I extremely appreciate and support the last replies, the initial subject was Diesel Electric propulsion.
Can we get back to that?

Whereas brokers are concerned, I think this would make a nice, funny but acid separate thread!

[BarryClay]

Originally Posted by TRY

Hi,

Although I extremely appreciate and support the last replies, the initial subject was Diesel Electric propulsion.
Can we get back to that?

Whereas brokers are concerned, I think this would make a nice, funny but acid separate thread!

OK. The original point in my bringing out the safety and engine room issue is simnply, the environmental consraints to deisel electric power generation support is one aspect no one speaks of. It seems to be the case that unlimited funds will always produce wastefull unlimited design. True design takes into account efficiency which includes environmental maintenance, not in terms of polluting the environment, but in terms of the engineering environmental effects. So what is achievable and what is doable versus what is prudent, must all be taken into account not just I want x performance and I have unlimited resources to achiev it. In terms of design, the new volvo approach with forward facing props is packaged very well. I would like to see Diesel/Electric put as much thought into efficiency.

[Woodge]

A very interesting thread - fuel prices will never be as low as they are right now, in terms of oil wars, global warming and the PeakOil scenario, so what will happen when it reaches USD100, USD200 or USD500 a barrel? USD1000??
It makes sense that the super-wealthy will continue to ply the oceans after the wells have run dry, so how will they do it??

Bear in mind that most plastics will also become very expensive as time goes by, as plastics are petro-derivatives. Epoxies, vinylesters, foams, fillers and fibres would become ever-more expensive....................(one would think that hardly possible )

Will wooden sailing vessels return to being state-of-the-art?? Who knows.........

I think that for a good while biodiesel will offer a decent alternative, there may even be biodiesel powered craft out there already. A rather pleasant alternative, if emissions and sustainability are taken into account.

Hydrogen will never present a real alternative, because hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source. This is because it costs more energy to extract hydrogen from whatever compound it is taken from (usually methane, I believe); than it yields as a fuel.

Photo-voltaic arrays are a good plan for house power, but I doubt their abilities to supply the kind of grunt required for main propulsion........but I would suggest one moves on that quickly, because most PV panels are heavily plastics-dependent and will become more and more costly as oil becomes dearer.

A very interesting option would be a hybrid system, primarily powered by sail and with something like the electric wheel as an auxiliary power plant.

I think DE will be used as a short term solution on a few vessels, but the really interesting stuff will be what the military are planning to do and the spinoff from there to the yacht industry.

It stands to reason that the military will become ever-more nuclear oriented, and so the conservative yachting industry ( perhaps the conservatism is because of the military connections that have for ever linked the two industries??) will almost certainly be able to offer a prospective customer one of two options in the medium term (25 to 50 year) future - sail or nuclear......................

Who would want to be a Chief Eng in 50 years time???

[D'ARTOIS]

Not for nothing QMII is powered by a DE system as the engineers and designers that developed her forsee or have reckoned with the fact that we are in - probably - the last stage of the fossil fuel era. If not for quantitative oil shortage it might another, more pressing reason that might add more complexity to this global query: the increase of global temperature.

What can be in the long run an extra asset to the installation of DE propulsion is the fact that - next to all the other advantages of DE propulsion - any type of engine can be mounted to power the electric supply-system.

Whatever turns up as a second generation source of power, it always can be connected to the already existing electric propulsion system.

What will be next to the combustion engine is still a riddle - for the large yachts say, 50 meters plus - can be equipped with miniaturised nuclear powerplants that powers a small steamturbine that powers the generator that supplies the electric energy for the propulsion.

Unless another type of engine may see the light. What surprises me is that one still talks about ill feasible systems like solar energy and the lot. Solar energy might be capable to power little apliancies over unspecified distances, but the larger yachts with their small city demands of electrical power, will be the first victims when someting unforseen happens to the present oil-supply.

In such a case it will definately do no harm to install a DE system that has also other practical advantages: reduction in maintainance, reliability, reduction of noise, full torque at all speeds, increased fuel economy, keeping similar powerspecs to traditional applications.

[Woodge]

Yes - certainly DE systems present that versatility as far as power plants are concerned in that the alternators can be turned by anything, as can hydraulic pumps for that matter!
I do believe that the world is steadily moving away from nuclear as a source, because of the 'dirty' connotations that come with it, but that would not preclude mega-yachts from being powered by a mini-reactor.
So what would the world be like with a hundred mini-reactors cruising around the oceans, running aground and having collisions with each other! The Greens will go bananas! Interesting, none the less.

And sure - solar is hardly worth the mention as a source.

What interests me more will be the construction material and methods of the mega-yachts of the future.

Wooden sailing ships will have their day again, surely?

[D'ARTOIS]

Originally Posted by Woodge

Yes - certainly DE systems present that versatility as far as power plants are concerned in that the alternators can be turned by anything, as can hydraulic pumps for that matter!
I do believe that the world is steadily moving away from nuclear as a source, because of the 'dirty' connotations that come with it, but that would not preclude mega-yachts from being powered by a mini-reactor.
So what would the world be like with a hundred mini-reactors cruising around the oceans, running aground and having collisions with each other! The Greens will go bananas! Interesting, none the less.

And sure - solar is hardly worth the mention as a source.

What interests me more will be the construction material and methods of the mega-yachts of the future.

Wooden sailing ships will have their day again, surely?

This is a nice topic, because it leaves much to the imagination!
Woodge, in the very near future, if a shortfall of oilsupply happens all in a sudden, and the supermega's needs a bit more than "just an engine" to power up, then there might be no other choice - save for remaining in the harbour.

A small nuclear powerplant can be beautifully fitted in a machine room and the only problems to be found are those of the respective governments allowing third parties to buy the radioactive fuel.

Out of nuclear engineering and design's view, there are no real problems to such a conversion. There are enough technicians around that can handle such powerplants and the advantages are so substantial that it surprises me actually that nobody had already made earlier attempt to get such - I admit complex - configuration integrated in a supermega.

Your second topic/issue is absolutely justified/justifiable. The problem is however, that in general the existing shipyards are conservative and do not dare, generally speaking, to discuss this kind of issues with their prospect clients.

Proposing an unusual material might lead to a loss of client and therefore loss of business and international recognition.
In this respect I have to make an exclusion for two Dutch Shipyards, who had dared to proceed, or who were not afraid to tackle this issue.

I am writing this now and if they are reading this, they will know at what I am pointing at.

Seven years have been passed on and still no serious ship has been built from this material.

But where starts material-consciousness?
On the table of the Architect? Yes.
And then?
Shipyard? Up to a certain extend. They might be influential but they are not decisive.

The client then?

No. Just the individual who will say: "I would like to build a boat from that and that material." And suddenly all the architects and yards will pop up, eager to tackle such challence.

Of course, to back up my story, I can name man and horse, so to speak.

This is actually a forum for all, all supporters do have a certain commercial interest,
and the new material wil pop up sometime, somewhere.

Finally, new materials exist, but it needs a no. 1 that will make the decision to go onwards.

[Woodge]

Originally Posted by D'ARTOIS

.

Proposing an unusual material might lead to a loss of client and therefore loss of business and international recognition.
In this respect I have to make an exclusion for two Dutch Shipyards, who had dared to proceed, or who were not afraid to tackle this issue.

I am writing this now and if they are reading this, they will know at what I am pointing at.

Seven years have been passed on and still no serious ship has been built from this material.

Of course, to back up my story, I can name man and horse, so to speak.

This is actually a forum for all, all supporters do have a certain commercial interest,
and the new material wil pop up sometime, somewhere.

Finally, new materials exist, but it needs a no. 1 that will make the decision to go onwards.

I am very interested to hear more about this material?? Please tell more?
You don't have to mention names even, just a description of the material?

I am very, very interested.............

[D'ARTOIS]

To give you a reply is not the problem, Woodge.

I know that there is in the US somebody attempting to find customers for this material, to no prevail; probably he faces same difficulties as I did long time ago.

I haven't pursued this venture anymore, maybe I am tempted to do it again, although I am not anymore involved in yachtbuilding and more in the production of Naval vessels and their propulsion.

In terms of a superyacht say, over 50 meters or more, you'll save about 30% in gross weight of hull and superstructure material, in comparison to the steel/alu traditional concept.

I have no need to promote myself, or the company I work in, so I prefer the present state of the issue and that is obscurity. Let it simmer, it was published once in Boat International, long time ago and I got only one reply on that topic, from Tasmania, that took almost half a year to reach me.

If you are personally interested, you could contact me.

[YachtForums]

Article in the Miami Herald on Diesel Electric propulsion's fuel savings and merits...

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...s/12460242.htm

[brian eiland]

The web master posted notice of some new technology at http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/ne...iven-prop.html but it didn't permit one to reply there.

So I thought this subject matter might well be integrated in this subject thread as it appears as though there are some number of new 'Peripheral Driven Prop' arrangements coming on line and/or being researched. These concepts lend themselves well to the electric driven concept.

I posted this message on another forum today,

"Exciting New EPS Thruster (& Propulsion)"

The results of the Design at METS awards, announced at this morning's Breakfast Briefing, appear to prove that the wheel can be reinvented according to the Jury, who named the EPS Silent Thruster from Van der Velden Marine Systems of the Netherlands as the overall winner.

This product redefines the bow thruster, eliminating the usual arrangement of a central hub and gearbox. It instead uses exchangeable blades that are connected to an outer ring; this floats on ceramic bearings and is powered by an integral motor in the casing. The solution is elegant, well designed, and promises a number of advantages over conventional concepts
_________________________
....from their website...

In addition to fixed thrusters they are now working on retractable systems as well as utilizing the concept of the EPS as a means of propulsion !!

I posted this as well, "Maybe the ceramic bearings aren't all of the technology that has allowed the emergence of this new propulser. It appears as though the preipheral drive power is an electric motor of some sort integrated into the outer ring. This would make sense with all of the new talk of diesel/electric systems."

....for more visit http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthr...5517#post65517

[Codger]

Diesel electric makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to get information on the actual reliability of the azipods with little success.
Anyone aware of an actual incident where an azipod has struck a solid object?

[MacMcL]

This is a very interesting thread, with lots of useful information. There can be no doubt that DE is the wave of the future. If you look to the cruise industry, which has been a "Pioneer" in the use of DE with pods on many of their new vessels, the only drawback has been the failure of seals in the pods, allowing seawater to come in contact with the drive motors. Several ships were actually pulled out of service in order to correct this issues. The advantages are clear, but the practical aspect is that there still are some drawbacks. I am all for it, but it clearly needs more R &D.

[Codger]

Thanks MacMcL

There do seem to be issues with the pods. Perhaps diesel electric systems using standard through hull shafted props is still the way to go at this time.

http://www.ebearing.com/news2004/092101.htm